brighid

Is anyone really surprised that the “god experience” can be scientifically determined to be a neurological process? The question is WHAT is causing this experience? Is it internally regulated, stimulated and experienced or is there an “outside” source such that it can be defined as a God? More specifically WHICH God is it? Christians interpret their experience to be that of the Christian God because this is how their mind has been taught to identify this experience as Christ. This does not however MAKE their experience that of the actual Christian God. It simply makes it a neurological experience that he or she has interpreted in a specific manner to be this specific God.

I have experienced what some have defined as a spontaneous Kundalini awakening. It was pretty fucking cool and I have never felt such a deep sense of connectedness to everything, or such euphoria in my life. I also never felt such a deep depression and sense of helplessness after it subsided. I have never experimented with psychotropic drugs, as I am a bit of a control freak but this experience is the closest I can come to identifying with that kind of experience. I have also participated in pagan ritual and during those rituals I have also had some pretty cool “religious” experiences. I STILL experience the same physical and mental “side effects” but I don’t attribute them to any deity. Those experiences are similar if not identical to other religious experiences as told by people who attend Church and feel this energy and warmth rush through them. My body temperature rises significantly (even though the ritual is performed at night and it’s usually cold out and I am wearing only a thin bodice) and you can touch either me and feel the difference. My hands and feet are particularly warm. I have touched my husband afterwards and he recoiled because my touch was so warm.

So what is it that we experience during these episodes? If millions of people achieve the same sort of effects, but all pray to different Gods then this brings into question the existence of ONE God, or at least our definition of it. I have confessed to many family and friends that I am a strong atheist in regards to the anthropomorphized Gods created in the image of men do suit the purposes or men, good or evil. And that I am an agnostic in the existence of something that can be defined as “GOD.” Perhaps this experience people interpret to be religious is nothing more then our brains inducing a reaction within our body because we seek it out. Maybe we are connecting with something more, but have no adequate definitions for it so our creative consciousness developed the myths of the Gods. I have NO confidence that these experiences are of any God that man has thus far created, especially as defined through Christian dogma and it’s borrowed myths and archetypes.

So what is it?

I know it’s difficult to relinquish the idea that something out there isn’t watching, judging and protecting us and that a prayer will cause some sort of intervention that will save us from imagined or real doom. I understand why people cling to this idea out of fear. I think as atheists we know one can live their life without this fear and be happy. I really don’t like the idea that upon my death that’s it. There will be nothing more of my existence and my conscious identity will cease to exist except in the minds of those who love or hate me. It’s comforting to think I will be united with my loved ones at some unknown point in the future. I would really like this to be true. But I find no evidence for it and if it happens, then great. If it doesn’t, well I will be worm food and my death with nourish new life that will help continue the cycles of birth, life, death and rebirth (not reincarnation.)

I think this fear phenomena is very similar to that of people who are terrified to be alone and stay in bad, unfulfilling or abusive relationships out of fear of the unknown. I know sooooooo many people like this. They fool themselves into believing what they know is not true, and apologize away the bad things their partner does – because He/She LOVES ME (just like Jesus loves me.) They just fail to understand that they will live and be okay if they are alone.

Brighid

Ryanfire

Soceity has to grow up. We're still a young race in cosmological standards. I often ponder if the world is capable of growing up. It seems to me we can. Remember back when we made movies about cars that could travel 60mph, and considered it a "fantasy". It is now reality and far above that thanks to science and engineering. It's only our understanding that limits us. I know athiests are on the right track, and if there is a god, he would have mercy on them because they are using their god given right of free will and intelligence to find truth. Not faith....

If religious people believe so much in faith, why don't they take a leap of faith in finding the truth.

If jesus comes down and more than shows us his godly powers, I would believe in him. It doesn't matter how long I have believed in him.. it could be for 1 minute, or 20 years, it still counts. Ask a religious person how long in human years does it take to believe in god, or be accepted by god.

Religion is so full of contradictions that it only shows how much more man made it is, and how much of it is *our* word, and not *gods* word. You just don't find god through a human emotion such as faith, you find god by using all of your senses. That accounts for that chemical high you experience at a church or pagan ritual gathering.
Just your emotions being hightened on a cheap drug.

jenn

Let me tell you why I believe in God.
1)I believe in God because there is no other explanation of our existence.I cannot prove one way or another how I got here.
2)When I think about the Universe and ALL the phenomenan that rests here on Earth, I am amazed!!
3)When I was about 6 yrs. old I had feelings of a Being around me and wondered why I could only think my thoughts, I wondered why I couldn't feel what my Mother was feeling.
After reading the Bible several times I realized that I had to figure out the specifics on my own.
I think there is so much cruelty in the world and I rely on something "good" to come out of the Hell that we live in from day to day.
Yes, my kids are beautiful and I am grateful that I can experience love. What is loving a person so deeply and not being able to know that you will be with them forever!!! Evil is negative energy(for me) and Goodness is positive energy(for me).
I do not NEED to believe I just do and always have. I cannot fathom the thought of not believing in a massive force.
NO ONE can prove the existence or non-existence. Some might argue that the Bible proves it.I have recently started reading it again with a different frame of mind. I am amazed on how different it reads. I am four years older and I have open my mind up to more science and physics. It seems to reason that if one was a genius in all fields, that person could prove the un explainable.Singularity is where I come from(in my mind).What does it hurt to BELIEVE???? <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

brighid

Jenn -

The only pain I feel in believing in the God of the Bible is the pain it puts my conscience through and the intellectual dishonesty is simply more than I can bear. You believe in the Biblical God not because he exists but because you were taught to associate that neurological experience with this particular deity. And although one cannot disprove something that may be defined as 'God' does or does not exist, one can prove the unlikelihood that your definition of this something is sorely lacking and therefore highly unlikely, if not completely improbable.

Brighid

Samhain

jenn:

Well, actually, there are other explanations. Of course, it would seem that none of these other explanations meet your expectations, or you do not know of the other explanations.

Ok. I'm glad you're at least being honest with us. While we cannot prove how we got here either, would you not say that the simplest solution is probably the most likely (i.e. Ockham's Razor)? The problem is overcomplicating what we know of our world, and rejecting that which we already know just so the god of the gaps can fit into place in our universe. While we may not know what is true as to how we came about, we try and hypothesize likely situations that also coincide with everything else that we know to be true in reality and with the laws of logic and science. The problem with many of the theists who believe in certain gods is that the ideas of the gods do not accept logic and science, but attempt to refute it when their existence would entail the rejection of that which we already know to be true in reality.

As I think many of us are. What's your point, though?

When I was 6 years old I believed I had monsters in my closet and that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were real.

What specifics? Many of us have also read it several times, and have come to the conclusion that, while it might be an interesting philosophy and a nice stretch towards trying to create peace and tolerance (at least the NT), it does not extend any futher than the credibility that we would give any other philosophy or fairy tale.

Pessimism is a matter of perspective. If you have problems with the world and the "evil" in it, then why not try and change the evil as opposed to causing strife? I personally feel that this life is absurd and meaningless, and yet I still have a strict sense of ethics and hold myself to a high moral standard.

Savor the moments, live every second of your life to its fullest potential and do not chase the false illusions that will waste your time and close your mind.

Why is that? I'm guessing because you've been socially and psychologically programed that way.

Well, actually, there are many proofs against the existence of many gods, especially the JC "God". However the belief shifts into the fallicious when it attempts to place the burden of proof where it cannot be disproven.

Well, no offense or anything, but they'd be wrong.

Oh no. Another member of the Pascal's Wager cult.

jenn

Brighid,
I am laughing!!!
YOU said I believe in the Biblical GOD.I did not say that!!I do not.
You have no proof to say that my defintion is unlikely either.You hold your belief and I will hold mine.
I did not say I was taught anything...you did.
For one, and I am saying this nice....Do not put words in my mouth.
I was taught this..,"what came first, the chicken or the egg"?
I have always been on a journey of my existence.I had said that I knew from a young age that it was "wrong" for me to feel alone in my thoughts.It may not make any sense to you bacause you may not have experienced the same feelings I experienced.So be it!
I was never a one to go for the," scare me into believing".
I cannot prove anything, I can only go by my senses and how I feel. Intuition(for me) is the forgotten sense. I go by intuition most of the time.If I felt that those twenty deer in the field was my step-son telling me he was okay, then so it is.That is just the way I feel. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

brighid

Jenn,

You are right and I am sorry that I assumed you believe in the Judeo-Christian God. You said you believed in God, and generally (as it applies in this forum) that is the Judaic or Christian God. Most theists tend to demarcate their beliefs by naming the God they believe in. My apologies.

B

jenn

Brighid,
Your apology is very much taken, and by no means am I upset.
Samhain,
For one, yes, I do agree there are other hypothesis as to how we became into existence.My choice for words can sometimes be IMPERFECT.
I made my point...it was a statement(about the Universe).
You were taught to believe in the Easter bunny and Santa, that is the difference. I was talking about a feeling, I thought I explained that pretty well.
As for false allusions...who are YOU to say what is real illusion!!I can see your point that you were trying to make, but being offended because I believe in something is being close minded. I will decide what is a "waste of my time". I have no idea who you are, but I will allow no one to tell me what I should do with my time.
I will also assure you that I am only a woman with my own mind(open as any), and I choose to believe something because logic and reason has lead me to that conclusion (so far). I am in no way a member of some cult. That is about the funniest accusation,and yet you do not KNOW me.
Furthermore I will tell you that I think you are way judgemental and you have no clue just as I don't have a clue what or who or where we came from!! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

philechat

On needing God:

1.Social values could be raised to an unquestionable level when they were sanctified by religion. By saying that God requires certain behaviors to be adhered to the community exercises its power on the individual.

2.Religions, especially those created by the oppressed groups, may be a sort of reversal of the existing order of this world. While the higher castes of society creates religions that affirms the existing social order (as in 1), the religions created by the oppressed often stress on an afterlife where the distinction is between the believer and the non-believer, without differentiation of class.

3. On existential crisis: Without God there seems to have no objective standard with regards to morality or meaning of life. For many people religions gave them a meaning of life they have trouble creating, while life's meaninglessness does not threaten the atheists/non-believers because of their unusual strength of mind to create meaning for their own lives.

4. On mystical experiences: I had plenty under influence of music (perceptual distortion, visual/tactile synesthesia, etc). They do not prove the existence of any gods however. Whether there was a pantheistic Force or whatsoever I don't know, and I would remain agnostic to it until a satisfactory explanation could be found.

5. Symbols were heavily used in religions, and some of them were undeniably artistic. The trouble I had with religion were their theology/dogma, which rendered "pure speculation/interpretaion" into "Rules/Ideas that should be adhered to all the time". Note that the relatively non-theistic Confusionism and Communism also smacked of theology/dogma.

6. Conclusion: People could practice religions as much as they want, if they lack the imagination to create meanings/artistic values for their own lives. The problem I seriously have was the religions' rigidity and discouragement of free inquiry. As if they must bring those "creators" down to their own level and chain them into those tight little cells of their unimaginative constructs.

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Samhain

jenn:

What, are you talking about solipsism? If so, then I think it would be better to end this right here. If not, however, violation of Okham's razor in reference to existence isn't the best way of going about trying to make a stance.

I'm not offended. I offer my perspective, and most of the time it is free of logical fallacy and coincides with the truth that we know of reality (if we are to accept our reality as truth). I could care less what you believe, really, and I know that you don't seem to wish to force your beliefs on others (quite noble for a theist, I might add). When one comes here, especially to the EoG forum, I don't hesitate to challenge someone elses beliefs, and that is all I'm doing now, it does not come from anger or spite, but more from my own desire to understand the world better. Until I find the "perfect" philosophy, I will continue to challenge my own and refine my own, and in turn that means also challanging what is presented to me.

As you will, I'm not a tyrant, and I don't care, you offered a problem, and I offered a solution, do with it what you will.

As it should be, I would not try and force my thoughts upon you either, I offer only my own perspective, and while I might seem a little pushy, it's not personal, but just reaction and conditioning from years of debate.

*Nods* That's fine, but if that means rejecting my criticism on your philosophy/theism, just because it suits you better to not listen to my questions, then I hardly see that as logical or reasonable.

That was just a little joke, yes, I do have a sense of humour, though it rarely arises. It was regarding your phrase of "What does it hurt to believe". If you understand what Pascal's Wager is, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Though, by that statement, it seemed quite an accurate one.

Oh, flattery will get you no where.
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me then, oh master of the clueness!

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>