galiel

This thread is all about whether other people should or should not approve of/associate with/let their children come into contact with a person who has made a particular choice about their own sovereign body.

The *real* issue here is why people think that they have the right to pass judgement on someone else's choices, when those choices do not really effect anyone else - not their physical, economic or relationship spheres, not their legal rights, not their ability to do whatever the hell they want.

Do you or do you not believe in the principles of self-determination and individual sovereignty over one's own person?

Those of us who choose to live in a society do so because there are certain benefits that accrue from cooperation that can not be achieved in solitude. Each and everyone of those benefits comes with a corresponding cost: a reduction in personal freedom.

The basis for all political conflict is the relationship between the perceived costs and the perceived benefits. I don't think anyone reasonably asserts that it would be desirable to restrict personal freedoms without cause.

A person's decision to have a sex-change operation is really their own business, and it is an act that does not cause any change in any other individual's status nor limit anyone else's freedom in any other way.

Judging them, keeping your kids away from them, or refusing to associate with them simply makes no rational sense and serves no rational purpose. Therefore, any decision to do so is simply irrational and superstitious.

In my opinion.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

brighid

Galiel,

I agree. I have a family member, through marriage that is a transsexual. He has been living as a woman for a few years now and takes hormones. We first met her at a wedding and my son was present. He wasn't sure what to make of her because she is rather masculine in many aspects - especially the hands. From behind you wouldn't know she isn't a woman, but when she turns around you are aware that it is a man living as a woman. It took my son a while to adjust because this was a 1st experience with a transsexual, but I certainly wouldn't keep my son from interracting with her. She is a nice person. Someone needs to teach her how to put makeup on like a girl, but other then that she is wonderful

I think people should be judged based on the content of their character, not their sexuality, skin color, gender or what not.

This will certainly be a difficult subject to explain to a child, but as others have said children adapt amazingly well and usually have MUCH less of a problem with it then adults do.

When my maid of honor came out to me as being gay and secretly in a homosexual relationship (although she had been in a heterosexual relationship for years and this is how my son knew her) ... I explained it to him as best I could and he said, "Okay Mom. She's cool and I love her anyway" and that was the end of the story. He hasn't treated her differently. He didn't get wierded out when he saw the two of them together. Wished that my own mother have behaved more like my child ....

I think it is unfortunate that our fear of the unknown keep us from exploring relationships with otherwise good people. This grandparent is changing physical appearances, not the fundamentals of he/she is. If he/she was a good grandparent before he/she will continue to be a good grandparent, possibly even better because know he/she can be honest with those he/she loves.

Brighid

babelfish

brighid, you said (correctly),


I think you've hit upon the reason this sort of thing is so disturbing to some people. To many people, what is between your legs really is fundamentally who you are. Not what is in your head, or in your heart.

abe smith

Oh, hell, Folks! Everybody can just settle back &n relax, frcrisesake.... My son who was there w/ me when I made the F&gt;M switch in 1970(He was then about 7 y.o.) took some heat from his peers, poor kid, but he lived thru it = grew up to be a SGT(20 yr man)in the Army; married happily; has fathered 2 presumably perfectly-ordinary teenagers; and so what's all the fuss about? I'lll have to ask my brother (father of 5, &lt;&lt; now about my son's age-peers, a little younger) what he DID say to the kids that time he sat them all down at the table & explained to them about Auntie Phyllis's turning into Uncle Abe.... Maybe today when he & I see each other for lunch...
After all, Folks, EVERYTHING that children see happening in the World is ALL new to them! and they learn to accept it. It's the GROWN-UPS
w/ all their baggage of social indoctrination who get all bent outa shape when new ideas contradict their stereotypes. And as for all the here-foregoing ^^^^ explanations & theories about WHY anybody wd do a crazy thing like THAT, hey NOBODY KNOWS WHY queers are queer, freaks are freaks AND WHY YOU SO-GENANNTEN "NORMAL" folks are "NORMAL".
So? whynchyu all relax awhile; the World & that's what dwell herein will function perfectly-nicely whether you "understand" it or not. Abe

babelfish

Nice rant, Abe!


<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Sincerely,

A Fan

jaz

I think a lot of you have misinterpreted my reasons for not wanting to associate with transexuals.

I haven't made this decision lightly. I happen to be a lesbian, so I am well aware of effects of intolerance, and how it feels to be rejected on what I perceive to be a minor detail. While I don't think that been a transsexual is a minor detail, I'm sure that is exactly how they feel. I have put some thought into this stance. Ultimately I am doing to transexuals what some people do to me. In some cases (I believe a majority, but I am biased), it's for different reasons, but the outcome is the same.

It's not a simply matter of intolerance, or a lack of understanding. It's a disagreement. Transsexuals have the right to do what ever they want, but I don't have to approve of that behaviour. Just as many people don't approve of my homosexuality. I wish they did, but that's not the reality. That isn't intolerance, or even a lack of understanding, it's just a different view point. And personally, I think what really matters is what you do with that view.

I think the behaviour, the operation, is wrong. I'll come to the why arguments later in my post. And I have to decide what sort of people I want around me. Because I think that behaviour is wrong, I choose not to be friends with transexuals, and I choose not to have them around my kids. It's not because I think that after the operation they turn into the big bad wolf. They don't. They simply endorse behaviour that I don't want around me. It's the same as choosing not to be friends with someone if you know they are a chronic liar. Naturally, if I don't want to associate with them on a personal basis, I don't want my kids to. I have to stress I am talking about on a personal basis, I would have no problem with the transexual at work, or at the local supermarket. I wouldn't completely cut them off and keep my kids completely separate. As lisarea said, they are human and they deserve the same respect as anyone else. I just choose not to be on a personal basis with them.

With the grandfather example, I couldn't keep my opinion to myself. And, despite what some of you are claiming, our gender is a major part of who we are. If it wasn't, sex change operations wouldn't be necessary. And there would be arguments over that gender of the grandfather. My father is just that. My father. He will never be, and can not be my mother. Even if I could change the rules for my family, and family certainly have the rules much more relaxed that the rest of society, I feel that the disagreement would be too major for it not to cause problems. I simply don't think a relationship as we had one before would be possible. It would be unfortunate, but that's the way I see it.

Onto, why I feel it is wrong.

I've basically stated why already. I don't think nature makes these kinds of mistakes. babelfish gave some examples earlier of cases where nature supposedly has made similiar mistakes. I don't think they are comparable. None of the examples are, IMHO, in the same realm of having 2 very contradictory, and to me very interconnected, attributes. As I don't believe a mistake has been made in relation to the body, I don't think it needs to be fixed. Obviously something has gone wrong somewhere, and I think that is what needs to be addressed. I have a problem with people who won't address the problem but rather choose to fix the outcome of the problem. That is what I see happening with sex change operations. They're fixing the outcome, not the problem. I completely disagree with that and do not endorse it. Especially when it's involving something which is interlinked to who you are, and has the ability to really affect those around you. And I don't want to be involved it in.

I hope that all made sense. It's 1 am at the moment and I happen to be in desperate need of some sleep. I'm sure you'll all be happy to point out my "mistakes" and misconceptions for me.

Jaz.

Glory

I gotta say, Jaz, I don't get your attitude. I don't see how it has an effect on you wether or not the lady sitting next to you was born with a pussy or got one from the hospital. I don't see of what you disapprove.

Mistakes do occurr naturally. I couldn't disagree more with you on this point. Mostly because the glasses I have worn since I was three years old to correct the effects of the defects in my eyes are giving me headache.

Why should a person live a life of misery when they don't have to? Out of respect for the randomness of nature?

Once the psychiatrists decide that the best course of sction is to treat the body rather than just the mind what's the problem? You say you disapprove because you don't think nature makes mistakes? What does that mean? You seem to imply that you disapprove of any surgical procedure which alters what is naturally occurring. What about heart defects or or a club foot? How are these defects any different? Why do you think you know better than the doctors on this?

Glory

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

babelfish

Hey jaz,

You have a right to feel however you want to. It's okay, and I hope you aren't feeling too attacked by everyone. It's just that feelings do tend to be translated into actions.

I just wanted to comment on the fact that you feel that transsexuality isn't the result of a mistake made by nature. You may be right. It could be something completely unrelated to nature that causes a person to feel like they are inhabiting a body that seems to be of the wrong gender. And I also agree that if we really didn't consider gender all that crucial, there would be no need for sex change operations.

But just because we haven't yet discovered some hormonal or other "natural" cause for transsexuality doesn't mean such a cause doesn't exist. If you remember, epileptics were once thought to be demon-possessed. And people who were clinically depressed used to be told to just "snap out of it," until it was discovered that there was an actual chemical imbalance in their brains.

The Other Michael

Pity the poor hermaphrodite - anything they do is probably wrong to someone.

cheers,
Michael

brighid

Jaz,

I am not sure the particular circumstances regarding the transsexual in your scenario. Perhaps this person was horribly abused through out childhood and because of this abuse they are unable to psychologically feel comfortable as their “natural” gender and therefore seek gender reassignment surgery. Unfortunately, such abuse does alter the brain and sometimes irreparably. In this case, although the genetic makeup of said person was not different by a random act of nature this person was altered by the nature of his environment. Perhaps the only way the deep psychological scars can be healed is through the psychotherapy required for this procedure AND the actual surgery itself. That information is only known by the doctor, patient and any one whom the patient has chosen to share said information. Someone cannot simply undertake this way of life without serious psychological evaluation and who are we to judge what has taken on in private sessions within a fiduciary relationship?

I do not understand your reasoning for why it is morally wrong for any person to undergo these procedures either by act of genetic mutation or by environmental manipulation that caused this unusual circumstance. How does this choice affect the qualities on ones character, the things that should actually define the value of human interaction in a familial or social setting?

As I am sure you know many argue that homosexuality isn’t a natural thing either. I do not know your personal feelings on your sexuality, but under the same argument you make against transsexuals the heterosexual community believes you should not act “unnaturally” and deny your attraction to women. Should you therefore live a life as a heterosexual female because homosexuality has not yet been determined to be a “natural” state?

You certainly don’t have to like this persons choices, but I think you should examine the reasons WHY you feel uncomfortable in this situation. It would seem that the problem is not actually with the transsexual, as you understand the arguments but you still maintain the opinion this is “wrong.”

Is it wrong to be a transsexual, or is it wrong to undergo the therapy and surgery to address (or correct) what has been determined to be wrong with the transsexual? I hope you take the time to read and view some of the things I have posted. The sexual development of the mind and body is much more complex then previously understood and if something is amiss within the genetic and hormonal structure of a transsexual there is nothing “unnatural” about a body displaying one gender, while the mind (influenced by hormones) cannot identify with the physical body.

Brighid