Buffman

HelenM

I thought this was going to be a serious discussion about the goals and differences between a church vice state controlled education. My bad! Please return to the bickering. It is often very entertaining though seldom educational.

Helen, you might ask yourself how you learned to tell the difference between fact and fiction.

Perchance

Thank you for the more pragmatic insights.

Ronin

What you don't know, though, is what effect my church has on children who go there.

HelenM ~ if your church is a Christian church and it teaches them the tenets of Christianity, then I absolutely do know what effect your church has on children.

There is no great mystery to this simple observation ~ don't make me sing my version of 'Jesus loves me'.

At that point I don't want to continue the discussion with whoever is doing so. I don't like it when someone else purports to know more about me than I know.

I do understand your sensitivity and it is apparent that this topic has made you uncomfortable.

You simply must ask yourself if it is really the respondents that are causing your suffering or just Christianity being exposed to the light of critical analysis that triggers the snare of defensiveness and persecution.

In any event, I empathize with you ~ and hope you will continue to remain.

HelenM

Perhaps I derailed my own thread - is that what you're saying?

Maybe I'm still learning how...

Helen
[/QB][/QUOTE]

HelenM

ok then

You think you do but you do not, in fact.

The snare of defensiveness and persecution?

I appreciate the empathy although you do not really understand...even though you think you do.

Before I came here I knew that Christians can be what I would call unreasonably paranoid about outside influence.

Since coming here, I have come to believe that the same is true in reverse. That non-Christians can be equally unreasonably paranoid about Christian influence.

I see ignorance and overgeneralization on both sides.

But I cannot prove it to you and it seems likely that I'm going to be in a minority here, in perceiving that.

So, maybe I will say no more about church teaching vs school teaching since it mostly seems to be getting me into trouble and doesn't seem to be achieving any significant offsetting beneficial things.

take care
Helen

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Buffman

HelenM

To both of your responses to me..."Yup!"

Bible Humper

Hello again Helen!

Absolutely! This is exactly why addressing this by charging headlong into discussing whether or not your church makes use of education or brainwashing would have been futile, it made much more sense to come from the flank and discuss the rival faiths.

Would you let your kids go to a Hindu temple until they were old enough to read and understand the theological arguments used on behalf of christianity?

How confidently can you say that after having been a member of one of those other religions that they would become christians as soon as they were exposed to the Word?

Imagine a Hindu asking you that! From our point of view, rightly or wrongly, there is no difference between the process by which Hindus become fervent believers in Hinduism, and the process by which Christians become fervent believers in Christianity. None at all!

This is why it was important, from my point of view, to have you look at it with our eyes, by imagining an analogous situation with a religion we both agree isn't right.


I don't see any examples of this, the only assumption I made is that since you are a christian, you know that the other religions are false.

None!

Regarding your theology link in the other thread, it actually seems to have strengthened my case! I'll leave that question for that thread though.

Don't you believe it! I myself was never subjected to it, but I have read about the anguish suffered by ex-christians during their own deprogramming, even after they had already decided none of it was true!

Whether or not christianity is true, it is damn tough to get rid of it's baggage when leaving it behind. There are many thoughtful and emotional testimonials by members of II which back up this assertion.

Thanks Helen!

GeoTheo

I would like to inject one element into the discussion that hasn't been brought up.
The teaching in most Churches in my experience is pretty bad. These are amateurs in the extreme in some cases. Just think about it for a second. The pool from where these sunday school teachers are picked is entirely from within the Church. Most Churches aren't that big. Not that there aren't some really dedicated ones that have a lot of skill and also put in a lot of preperation, but often they are prety amateurish. So if there are supposed to be some type of sophisticated brainwashing techniques they are being applied pretty shoddily.
My Aunt was in the moonies for 20+ years and from what I have heard from her they really have their brainwashing shit together a lot more than the average Baptist Church. They are professionals.
I'd say the average Christian sunday school teacher is little more than a nice Christian Baby sitter until the teen years and then at that point the kids don't say much and have the same snotty teen age attitude in Sunday school class that they do in public school, but they only spend an hour a week in sunday school, if that.
So I think this conspiracy theory that Sunday school is brainwashing is pretty silly.

HelenM

Bible Humper

Actually, I see that you're right. It is impossible for me not to be biased.

I'd suggest you be cautious in what you say regarding anything about which you don't have first-hand knowledge. Whether it be church teaching or anything else. But I am aware that this applies to me too.

Thanks for your comments.

Helen

Bible Humper

Do you envision the process of religious instruction in all the rival faiths to include the priest swinging a pendulum in front of the child's eyes in order to program his or her adherence?

Could it be possible that there is no difference between the "brainwashing" going on in the religions around the world, and the "education" going on in yours?

Tell us what you consider to be "brainwashing", and also whether or not this activity goes on in the the rest of the world's religions.

Surely you've noticed that despite the fact that all of the other religions are based on myths, the adherents of those faiths for some reason fail to realise this, and the truth of christianity, even when presented with the Word!

Thanks.

Bible Humper

Hello Helen,

I'll keep that in mind, because I am, of course, not immune to bias. I do stand by everything I've said so far in this thread, though!

Thanks for the thanks!

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>