TheDiddleyMan

I have some questions for River and I have some questions for others who have knowledge about these things.

I want to know from people who have historical knowledge about people's astronomic beliefs:

Where did the idea of seven heavens originate? I thought it was a greek idea but in looking it up, I don't find anything about the greeks believing in seven heavens. Where did it come from? Was it before the Quran? Also, could you explain what the seven heavens were?

For River - you alledge that the seven heavens are things like this:

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere


Now, I have pasted below all of the references to the seven heavens I could find the the Quran:

002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

----

017.044
YUSUFALI: The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!
PICKTHAL: The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymneth His praise; but ye understand not their praise. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving.
SHAKIR: The seven heavens declare His glory and the earth (too), and those who are in them; and there is not a single thing but glorifies Him with His praise, but you do not understand their glorification; surely He is Forbearing, Forgiving.

----

023.017
YUSUFALI: And We have made, above you, seven tracts; and We are never unmindful of (our) Creation.
PICKTHAL: And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation.
SHAKIR: And certainly We made above you seven heavens; and never are We heedless of creation.

---

023.086
YUSUFALI: Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"
PICKTHAL: Say: Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous Throne?
SHAKIR: Say: Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the mighty dominion?

----

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

----

065.012
YUSUFALI: Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.
SHAKIR: Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them; the decree continues to descend among them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge.

-----

067.003
YUSUFALI: He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?
PICKTHAL: Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?
SHAKIR: Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?

-----

071.015
YUSUFALI: "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
PICKTHAL: See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony,
SHAKIR: Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another,

071.016
YUSUFALI: "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
PICKTHAL: And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
SHAKIR: And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?

----

078.012
YUSUFALI: And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments,
PICKTHAL: And We have built above you seven strong (heavens),
SHAKIR: And We made above you seven strong ones,

----

Now, there is absolutely no evidence that the seven heavens refers to the seven things you labeled up above - the layers of the atmosphere. For one thing, the verses up say that there are seven *different* heavens. But you quote a source saying there are seven layers of the atmosphere - which, as far as I can tell, is saying there are seven *parts* to the **one** "sky" (and as far as I can tell, the sky isn't only made up of our atmosphere - it seems to me that the atmosphere is the closest part of the sky to space, but you have to go a while before you hit what we call the atmosphere. But I could be wrong). So, in other words, there are seven layers to the atmosphere but you have not proven that that verse says there are seven different layers to the atmosphere, because the verse says that there are seven different heavens - completely different from one another, not parts of one sky.

Secondly, you go on to say that there is another miracle. I quote:

Another important miracle on this subject is mentioned in the statement "(He) revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate.", in verse 12 of Sura Fussilet. In other words, in the verse, God states that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as seen in previous chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves, to averting the harmful effects of meteors.

One of these functions, for example, is stated in a scientific source as follows:

Earth's atmosphere has 7 layers. The lowest layer is called troposphere. Rain, snow and wind only take place in the troposphere. "

So according to your interpretation, the Quran says that the lower heaven gives rain (I challenge to show me where the Quran says the lower heaven - the whateversphere - gives rain).

But according to the Quran - in the exact verse you quote - the lower heaven has stars in it!

Here it is again:

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
-----

Another verse says that the moon is a lamp in the midst of the seven heavens?

Is the Quran saying the the troposphere - part of our atmosphere - has stars in it? The same place that causes rain?


So, again - my challenge to River.

1) Show that it is the layers of the atmosphere that are being referred to when the seven heavens are mentionned

2) Explain what the Quran means when it says the lower heavens are adorned with stars, if the seven heavens refers to layers of the atmosphere.


Kevin

River

This is an interesting topic and I will try to answer it to the best of my ability. The material I presented is actually from Harun Yahya's website ( he's a prominent Muslim philosopher and scientist). He claims that the seven heavens are " 7 layers of atmosphere" .Its an open possibility but perhaps the term " 7 heavens" have a dual or multiple shade of meaning ( something that occurs quite alot in Semitic languages). Or perhaps the 7th heaven constitues all 7 layers layers of the atmosphere....meaning that 6 other heavens (possibly metaphysical ) lay outside our scope. However, Maurice Bucaille another scientist pointed out that 7 in semitic languages is a symbol for " many".

River

Complicating the matter further is the fact that Hadiths say that there are 7 Heaven (s) as in Paradise of different ranks. Now the Qur'an clearly uses a different term for Paradise ( derived from the Hebrew) and Heavens .


Jewish Cabbala also mentions 7 ranks of Paradise.

TheDiddleyMan

Regarding the last point of 7 meaning "many" that defeats the entire point of your scientific argument about the Quran's accuracy.

And I would say that Yahya is wrong on this one.

I haven't examined all of the Quran's scientific "miracles" but the ones I have are all like this - a vague statement interpreted in some way to put it in a positive "miraculous" light.

I am not attacking the Quran by saying this, nor you, River.

But I do think that those who look for scientific miracles in the Quran are only making themselves look silly in the end.

Either way, I await your reply. I make look up a couple of other supposed scientific statements in the Quran and reply, but I do have other things on my mind....

Thanks,

Kevin

River

-DiddleyMan


Ironically Maurice Bucaille who mentioned that "7" can also mean "many" in Semetic languages is.....also the author of " the Bible, The Quran, and Science".


I believe the Qur'an is carefully chiselled. It may not appear "scientically advanced" to some but it is written in such a specific way that it actually can bypass any scientific criticism.

For example as you know , the Quran has many terms for "day" however in the 6 Day creation verse it chooseth the definition that also somehow means " Eras" as well. If the Qur'an used another word for day...it might have been in the same trouble as the Bible.

Well, I believe its pretty remarkable that such a large text does not get contradicted by science. It may or not promote scientific phenomena...but it certainly doesnt contradict it......(which also explains issues like.... why the average muslim doesnt really care if Evolution is true or false)

Coragyps

Harun Yahya certainly seems to care a great deal: enough to get in bed with Answers in Genesis and other Christian antiscience organizations, borrowing dozens of their arguments for his slick website.
River, can you find me as many as one piece of scientific literature that refers to the "Ozonosphere?"

TheDiddleyMan

Interesting. But that is an *entirely* different claim than that the Quran predicts science or has scientific miracles. And I would say that the Quran is contradicted by science, but to be honest it has been awhile since I have looked into the matter and I am not prepared to argue that point.

Kevin

Lobstrosity

The Bible is also carefully chiselled such that it can bypass any scientific criticism! This has nothing to do with being written in a specific way, it has to do with the fact that it's written in a vague, nebulous way in which any statement can be interpreted pretty much any way you want. For example, you can find a passage in the Bible to support pretty much any action or position imaginable! It seems the same is true of the Koran; just look at what you're doing in this thread:

The seven refers to the seven layers of the atmosphere--isn't it amazing how scientifically accurate the Koran is?!?

OR

The seven heavens are metaphorical and refer to something metaphysical (i.e. the Koran is still unchallenged by science because you have reinterpreted to move outside the realm of science)

OR

Seven could be translated to mean "many," so if we ever find out seven is wrong we have a nifty out.


Finally, the Koran allows for the supernatural, which means that any scientific contradiction can be explained away by invoking God. This is the same reason why YECs can continue to believe in a young earth. It's not supported by science, but science can't refute it (since science can't conclusively say a supernatural entity didn't create everything in such a way as to simply make it look old or perhaps interfere along the way to fuck with empirical data). You needn't be proud that the Koran hasn't been refuted--you can be sure that neither it nor the Bible will ever be refuted given that the second a refutation comes the books will simply be reinterpreted; once literal passages will be come metaphor and parable.

echidna

River, why then exactly isn't Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, the allegorical Word of G_d ?

River

"7" means " many" to Semetic languages including possibly Aramaic, Akkadian, Hebrew and Arabic. You may want to take a Survey, addressing this Question to all possible Semetic Religions including Judaism, Christianity , Sabeanism/Mandeanism and Islam. I believe , it will provide much insight into this hotly debated topic. I wish you luck in your journey. Best wishes.

-River