Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Justin70 · 03-25-2003, 08:35 PM

Forgive me if this is a topic that has been covered recently. I'm kinda new.

My background is quite religious before I became an atheist and I've often wondered if my morality is entirely based on religious concepts/scriptures - not necessarily Christian mind you, but I've spent quite a bit of time thinking of this and haven't come to a solid conclusion.

So I forward the question to everyone here. Does anyone here that's atheist/agnostic have a moral code that they can ascribe to 100% secular ideas or very close?

Are there codes/laws that are entirely RATIONAL? I know of a few off the top of my head but I thought it would be interesting to discuss and share.

Thanks in advance!

Justin

K · 03-25-2003, 08:54 PM

Justin70:

There are discussions about this all the time over at Moral Foundations. You might want to look over there. There usually seem to be about three conversations of this nature going on at any given time.

Philosoft · 03-25-2003, 09:01 PM

I'll sent this to MF&P...

Frest · 03-25-2003, 09:25 PM

I'm new to the board myself, and seeing this post moved to this section, i was curious if anyone has any threads from the past they might link.

other than that, i recently had the good fortune to participate in a religious forum at my university. After hearing a rabbi from the oncampus synagogue speak, i couldn't help but leave with more respect for the Hebrew religion than any of the other speakers (protestant, roman catholic, etc). perhaps this is because of the reverence for law, monogamy, and justice put forth in traditional hebrew belief, and the lack of conversion.

My curiosity stems from the obvious anthropologic issues related to the moral codes of the hebrew/christian religions. the code of hammurabi, the old testament, the ten suggestions, the whole bit seem to reinforce the basis of communal societal structure. Are theists confusing the issue by basing this law within the confines of purely belief driven architecture?

In other words, theists, as an atheist am i incapable of realizing the repercussions of my actions inside of a society without Big-Ole-Papa-Smurf-On-High burning shrubbery at me?

Alonzo Fyfe · 03-25-2003, 09:29 PM

I can shamelessly suggest the following:

Ethics Without God

happyboy · 03-26-2003, 05:45 AM

of COURSE you can't have ethics without a Deity in the sky threatening you with eternal punishment and heinous torture! it's not like people ever do good things out of the goodness of their hearts, or because it makes them feel better, or because it's simply the right thing to do!

don't you understand??? morality is nothing more than God browbeating us into behaving the way He wants us to, because humanity is obviously too evil to act properly on it's own accord. why, all us non-believers are wicked, evil people, and we're just pretending we're moral people when we come to these boards. don't you understand anything , you poor, poor, deluded fool? why, i practice cannibalism and worship satan. i'm as evil as hitler himself......

happyboy, who's glad he's an evil non-believing satanist

Hawkingfan · 03-26-2003, 05:55 AM

Welcome Justin,

It is believed that morals evolved when early man formed social groups in order to maximize survival. Morals came from the strong primal desire to pass along your genes. This was one of each individual's top priorities. If someone behaved "badly", their chances of passing on their genes were slim. This gave one the incentive to behave according to the morals of the social group.

JerryM · 03-26-2003, 08:37 AM

The above posts are all quite true. What we call ethics are behavioral patterns which promote survival and procreation of the social group. Religion came afterwards, as a means of maintaining group identity and cohesion, and also to reinforce the pre-existing cultural norms. So really, ethics preceeds religion, and not the other way around.

Arvel Joffi · 03-26-2003, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe
I can shamelessly suggest the following:

Ethics Without God

That's because without God you have no ehtics and, therefore, no shame! Remember shame is a very healthy emotion. It's crucial, in conjunction with feelings of endless guilt and worthlessness, to a deeper understanding of your relationship with God.

Arvel Joffi · 03-26-2003, 09:10 AM

You can do "good" because of fear of retribution, spiritual or otherwise.

You can do "good" for the reason that it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Selfish, but it works.

You can do "good" for goodness' sake. I think this is the best, healthiest option, but also the most difficult, as it requires a personal sense of morality. This leads to difficult decisions and mistakes, and it requires frequent and great sacrifice.

03-25-2003, 08:35 PM	#1
Justin70 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 314	Morality without Religion? Forgive me if this is a topic that has been covered recently. I'm kinda new. My background is quite religious before I became an atheist and I've often wondered if my morality is entirely based on religious concepts/scriptures - not necessarily Christian mind you, but I've spent quite a bit of time thinking of this and haven't come to a solid conclusion. So I forward the question to everyone here. Does anyone here that's atheist/agnostic have a moral code that they can ascribe to 100% secular ideas or very close? Are there codes/laws that are entirely RATIONAL? I know of a few off the top of my head but I thought it would be interesting to discuss and share. Thanks in advance! Justin

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03-25-2003, 08:54 PM	#2
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Justin70: There are discussions about this all the time over at Moral Foundations. You might want to look over there. There usually seem to be about three conversations of this nature going on at any given time.

03-25-2003, 09:01 PM	#3
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	I'll sent this to MF&P...

03-25-2003, 09:25 PM	#4
Frest Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SUNY Posts: 7	I'm new to the board myself, and seeing this post moved to this section, i was curious if anyone has any threads from the past they might link. other than that, i recently had the good fortune to participate in a religious forum at my university. After hearing a rabbi from the oncampus synagogue speak, i couldn't help but leave with more respect for the Hebrew religion than any of the other speakers (protestant, roman catholic, etc). perhaps this is because of the reverence for law, monogamy, and justice put forth in traditional hebrew belief, and the lack of conversion. My curiosity stems from the obvious anthropologic issues related to the moral codes of the hebrew/christian religions. the code of hammurabi, the old testament, the ten suggestions, the whole bit seem to reinforce the basis of communal societal structure. Are theists confusing the issue by basing this law within the confines of purely belief driven architecture? In other words, theists, as an atheist am i incapable of realizing the repercussions of my actions inside of a society without Big-Ole-Papa-Smurf-On-High burning shrubbery at me?

03-25-2003, 09:29 PM	#5
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I can shamelessly suggest the following: Ethics Without God

03-26-2003, 05:45 AM	#6
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	of COURSE you can't have ethics without a Deity in the sky threatening you with eternal punishment and heinous torture! it's not like people ever do good things out of the goodness of their hearts, or because it makes them feel better, or because it's simply the right thing to do! don't you understand??? morality is nothing more than God browbeating us into behaving the way He wants us to, because humanity is obviously too evil to act properly on it's own accord. why, all us non-believers are wicked, evil people, and we're just pretending we're moral people when we come to these boards. don't you understand anything , you poor, poor, deluded fool? why, i practice cannibalism and worship satan. i'm as evil as hitler himself...... happyboy, who's glad he's an evil non-believing satanist

03-26-2003, 05:55 AM	#7
Hawkingfan Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,247	Welcome Justin, It is believed that morals evolved when early man formed social groups in order to maximize survival. Morals came from the strong primal desire to pass along your genes. This was one of each individual's top priorities. If someone behaved "badly", their chances of passing on their genes were slim. This gave one the incentive to behave according to the morals of the social group.

03-26-2003, 08:37 AM	#8
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	The above posts are all quite true. What we call ethics are behavioral patterns which promote survival and procreation of the social group. Religion came afterwards, as a means of maintaining group identity and cohesion, and also to reinforce the pre-existing cultural norms. So really, ethics preceeds religion, and not the other way around.

03-26-2003, 09:10 AM	#10
Arvel Joffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 3,359	You can do "good" because of fear of retribution, spiritual or otherwise. You can do "good" for the reason that it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Selfish, but it works. You can do "good" for goodness' sake. I think this is the best, healthiest option, but also the most difficult, as it requires a personal sense of morality. This leads to difficult decisions and mistakes, and it requires frequent and great sacrifice.

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