the_cave

[etc.]

Fiach--you have got to stop presenting your very interesting historical speculations as fact. Maybe you're not doing anything that many Christians aren't doing, but that doesn't excuse it.

For example, yes, there are some fragmentary lines in the Talmud about one "Yeshua". There are also lines that have sometimes been interpreted to refer to Jesus, but there is usually little basis for this assumption. We also have no idea whether the Talmud's "Yeshua" is Jesus...there is nothing in the Talmud like your definitive statemennt "Jesus Ben Pandira who was son of Mary Magdalene"! There are some fragmentary references to unknown figures, and the meaning is often vague, ambiguous, or even completely hidden. That's about the extent of it. I'm sure you know this, but I have to set the record straight for others.

Again, your historical speculations are quite interesting, and some of them are indeed factual. I also agree that some have often been hypothesized by others--and of course there's nothing wrong with making historical speculations from fragmentary evidence, in an effort to uncover the truth. But I must again emphasize that some of them are quite speculative, and do not represent a consensus of scholarship.

Sabine Grant

Even though not aknowledged as divine Jesus is very much mentionned as an existing prophet in Q'ram.... I thought I would just point to that detail in response to your comment above " who only appears in the NT".

Sabine Grant

Radorph.. hi son!

Fiach

I admit that you have a good point. I should not ascribe any of this as fact. It is indeed speculation, as is the Bible itself. Information of the Talmud, is from an old scholarly source from back in the 1920s. I can read no Hebrew so I can't verify what it says. The actualy existence of a person, Jesus of Nazareth is also speculative. There are things that raise suspicions of the mere circumstantial evidence for Jesus. For example, all accounts of Jesus were written long after the alleged events, including Tacitus and Josephus who did not personally confirm anything but the existence of a cult of Jeus believers. It is therefore interesting that there are no Roman records from Pontius Pilate's extensive records of any Jesus, no accounts by contemporary Jews about a crucifixion and resurrection and the thunder and lightning with opening graves and walking dead men all over Jerusalem. Gospel writers say it but nobody seems to have noticed in Jerusalam in 29 CE. There are no FACTS known in any of this. It is all competing speculations.

Fiach

lpetrich

Personally, I think that Fiach is going off the deep end about the Xianity-Mithraism relationship. The details are too different:

Mithraism had a lot of astronomical/astrological symbolism, while early Xianity had very little.

Mithraism was male-only with seven levels of initiation, one for each "planet", while even early Xianity had both sexes of members and lacked such levels of initiation. Though the comment about someone being "caught up in the third heaven" (I Corinthians 12:2-4) may be a vestige of something like that.

Mithraism was officially secret, without any sacred books, while Xianity was public from the beginning, sacred books and all. However, parts of the Gospels referring to teachings to be kept secret may be vestiges of such secrecy.

Also, such features as sacred meals and a miraculously-conceived hero were commonplace items in the eastern Mediterranean at the time.

I don't want to start a flame war, but I think that the Mithraism-Xianity similarities are overstated.

lpetrich

Also, Fiach ought to find a picture of that supposed Egyptian trinity; unless he can do so, then it will be worthless as evidence -- I'd like to see for myself how justified that interpretation is.

lpetrich

LP:
Does anyone else here find Radorth's emotionalism entertaining?
Biff the unclean:
It would be more fun if he weren't so panicky and could stay on a topic for more than two blurbs.

I find especially entertaining his emotionalism whenever someone suggests that Jesus Christ was a myth. He gets really unhinged when someone suggests that; he acts just like a little kid who has been deprived of his favorite toy.

Fiach

I don't have the picture. It has been long lost since my days in the Royal Army. I am not likely to go back their now. So all we have is my admittedly personal account and eye witness reports are not scientifically valid, I know.

In the mean time there is plenty of other evidence that Jesus is a myth, possibly never existing, or at best a deluded human but never a god.

So drop the Luxor temple Murals until someone can get their and take the pictures. Do we have any dark skinned chaps who are Muslim or ex-Muslim who could safely got there and avoid bullets from the Muslim Brotherhood.

Fiach

Radorth

Oh DUH!

They don't need to, and when you learn that 80% of the world is smarter and wiser than you think, you'll stop peddling this rhetorical, inane crap. (I hope).

Rad

Radorth

Hi Mom!

Rad

Yikes. She's omnipresent.