Mingan

Copernic
It’s hard for me to fathom, but I’ll keep it in mind as we progress though this discussion.
I can certainly understand your view on this. Even being a Christian, I have a hard time with what I consider “religious”. However, since this is a discussion of the Bible, we should put aside the doctrine and look to see what the Bible says. By the way, have you read the Bible? I’m asking only to know if I’m speaking to someone who will respond with what they know instead of carbon copied answers from someone else.
Since this is a biblical discussion, we’ll start with the biblical answer. According to the bible there is only one true way left to receive salvation / eternal life. I don’t think that you and I will have much of an issue on that. The complex part of the plan is difficult to understand for the ignorant and the incompetent (we’ll get to that later).
The cruel God part caught my attention however. I rather think of God as enforcing justice instead of being cruel. It’s all a matter of perspective I suppose. God set a standard, either follow the standard or pay the penalty. I liken it to an analogy of gun laws. If you transport a loaded firearm into certain states, it is against the law and you’d subject to felony charges, regardless of the fact that your origin state does not enforce the same law and you were unaware of the law in the first place.
QUOTE]<strong> If salvation is through understanding the Gospels as requiring faith in Jesus, what is to happen to those who never heard the Gospels (ignorant), didn't understand the Gospels, (incompetent), or weren't convinced (incredulous)? </strong>[/QUOTE]
This is excellent. I believe you’ve very succinctly stated this issue. I think I’ve already address the incredulous aspect, and you indicated that you were aware of the results of deliberate skepticism as well, however I am not yet prepared for the ignorant (other than what I stated above) or the incompetent. My initial response has to do with the age of accountability and such, but that is inherently dangerous without having supporting scripture. I ask that you give me a little while to search for scriptural support (since this is a scriptural discussion)

Mingan

Thanks for responding Jobar.
(wow the big guns)
Let me first say that thanks for writing. Second, faith is the deciding factor according to the Bible. Let’s quickly separate my arguments from the Bible’s. I don’t have the authority that it has. As for the rest of you questions, I’m still working on finding scriptural answers and I ask that you both grant me this time because I sincerely want to hear your responses. This is an excellent opportunity for me to learn. Thank you,

Writer@Large

You will find, Mingan, that most of us here have read the Bible. Indeed, many of us once accepted it as true, to one degree or another, and count that knowledge amongst our reasons for deconverting. Biblical knowledge is something this site definetly doesn't lack .

--W@L

Mingan

Writer@Large
Thanks for responding. I'm glad to hear that biblical knowledge is available on this site. One of my main complaints is what I call the blind following the blind syndrome. It goes both for Christian and non-Christian. I’m trying to develop non-cookie cutter arguments that will help make a more informed decision one way or the other. I’m looking for honest exchanges and not some of the name-calling, non-informative drivel that is prevalent on some sites. I look forward to seeing what you guys have to offer.

Philosoft

It isn't at all clear that <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html" target="_blank">this is the case</a>.

<strong> What God believes he's doing is irrelevant. We judge actions according to our faculties and sensibilities, and our faculties and sensibilities tell us that God's method of providing information about salvation is inferior. We presume that an omni-max God knew his method would fall short and that he could have created a better method. Thus, we conclude he does not want some humans to have salvation, which we judge to be cruel.

<strong> His standard is what it is. His method of informing about the standard is, well, substandard. The probability that a single book can be used to give everyone on the planet a fair shake at salvation is effectively zero.

<strong> These types of analogies are mostly useless because God allegedly does not have the limitations that humans do.

Mingan

Oh, I see.

Mingan

Below are a couple passages that I think will help us begin to clarify this issue. The Hebrews 5 example seems to indicate that it is possible for a selected “few” to stand in for the ignorant. I have not yet found anything for the incompetent. While the 2 Peter indicates that God has setup the rules of salvation, and is not constrained by our notion of time in the dealing of the consequences for intentional unbelief. Let me continue my research. This is actually very constructive for me.

Hebrews 5
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

2 Peter 3
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Philosoft

Mingan,

Your passages seem to cover willful non-believers or deniers, but what of the circumstantially ignorant?

Mingan

Philosoft:
The Hebrews passage has a reference to the ignorant. This is a work in progress for me. Obviously this is a very big issue and not subject at all to the quick answer. I'll get more and post it here or in a new thread as soon as I am able.

Mingan

Here's another. It indicates all people (i assume including the "ignorant" and the incompetent)though more research is in order.

Rom 1:20
since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse