Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Beleg_Strongbow · 04-26-2003, 04:35 PM

While discussing evolution with my dad, he said "Well, I guess if you have a million monkeys working on a million typewriters, eventually you'll have the best book in the world!"
That is a little bit true, but to really represent evolution, it would have to go something like this:
Set a monkey in front of a computer. Start a blank word processer document. Type a simple sentence to start with, like "I like dogs." Then, have the monkey randomly select a word, or randomly select a space to type a new word. Then, the monkey can type a random new word. If the word is bad, like "I like hjgfh dogs", delete it. However, if it makes sense, like "I like two dogs.", then keep it. If you do this long enough, eventually, you will have a great novel.
I don't suggest anybody try this with a monkey. If you can't picture a monkey at a computer, substitute it with a computer programmed to generate random letter patterns, the monkey is only there to represent randomization.

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-26-2003, 05:16 PM

Actually, neither scenario is analogous.

For it to be, you'd have to give the monkeys hundreds of thousands of years (if not millions) and set the room up so that the only way they would survive is by figuring out how to use the computers.

It isn't just about time; it's about time plus survival, and/or mutations that occur over time that result in better survival techniques; in other words, it's dynamic, not static, like the roomful of monkeys.

GunnerJ · 04-26-2003, 05:29 PM

Just a comment Koy, but what you describe is not exactly an analogy, it's just an example of evolution.

Beleg_Strongbow · 04-26-2003, 05:42 PM

The monkeys are not the ones evolving, the "story" on the computer is. A random mutation occurs, if it works (it makes sense), it is kept, if not, it is discarded. That sounds a lot like evolution to me. It would take a LONG time to get up to a novel, but it is certainly possible.

Jimmy Higgins · 04-26-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg_Strongbow
Set a monkey in front of a computer. Start a blank word processer document. Type a simple sentence to start with, like "I like dogs." Then, have the monkey randomly select a word, or randomly select a space to type a new word. Then, the monkey can type a random new word. If the word is bad, like "I like hjgfh dogs", delete it. However, if it makes sense, like "I like two dogs.", then keep it. If you do this long enough, eventually, you will have a great novel.

What rubbish. We all know sentences can change. But the sentences are of the same "kind", declaratives.

Show me, you evolutionist, one instance where a declarative sentence evolved into a imperative sentence!

Jimmy Higgins · 04-26-2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
Actually, neither scenario is analogous.

For it to be, you'd have to give the monkeys hundreds of thousands of years (if not millions) and set the room up so that the only way they would survive is by figuring out how to use the computers.

It isn't just about time; it's about time plus survival, and/or mutations that occur over time that result in better survival techniques; in other words, it's dynamic, not static, like the roomful of monkeys.

Actually it gets worse. What if in that time the monkeys evolve into beings that can write on their own. It wouldn't be random anymore. That would completely disprove evolution.

(Editted to add this was my 2000th post)

Where the heck are my 2000th post balloons?

EvolvEarth · 04-27-2003, 01:00 PM

I really don't know the correlation of biological evolution and monkeys on a typewriter is. Monkeys on a typewriter have nothing to do with natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, and the such.

Anyway, they've already created a program that could evolve itself to become more complex over time. I think it's called Avida--get your father to look into it.

RBH · 04-27-2003, 01:46 PM

EvolvEarth wrote

Quote:

Anyway, they've already created a program that could evolve itself to become more complex over time. I think it's called Avida--get your father to look into it.

Not exactly. Avida is an artificial life research platform/environment in which the artificial organisms are small assembly language programs. What evolves are populations of those assembly language programs under selective pressure induced by competition for the limited 'space' available in the Avida 'world.' Additional selective pressure can optionally be induced by an exernally-defined fitness function. The platform is downloadable for Windows and Linux/Unix at the URL above.

One thing Avida does very nicely is give the lie to the ID/Creationist claim that evolution can't create "new information." One can watch thousands of novel assembly language programs appear in a long Avida run. If that ain't "new information," the phrase is vacuous. Avid also gives the lie to the claim I've heard from IDist/creationist programmers that 'computer programs can't evolve, and therefore genes, which are analogous to computer programs (a crummy analogy, by the way), can't evolve either.' Programs sure can evolve and one can watch them evolving in Avida.

RBH

dublczek · 04-27-2003, 01:47 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/in/hypnoson...e_Monkeys.html

Doubting Didymus · 04-27-2003, 04:01 PM

Here is an analogy of natural selection that I adapted from the monkeys and typewriters scenario:

Quote:

A monkey will never type a Shakespearean play, but imagine yourself embodying natural selection for a moment. You have a monacle, a top hat, a nasty cruel whip in one hand and a glass of brandy in the other. You review the monkeys scripts, keep every letter they type that makes the script look more like Shakespeare, whack him for every letter he gets wrong, and get the monkey to retype the rest. On the first and second runs all you have a page of gibberish and a well-spanked monkey. But then something quite amazing happens. With every new run, you have a script that is beginning to make sense, because you keep every letter that the monkey gets right. He is not allowed to touch them anymore, but he does retype the mistakes. Eventually, half the script will have been randomly hit correctly, then as the poor little feller continues to correct his mistakes, he will be retyping less and less of the page, until he is correcting only a few spelling errors, and then nothing. You have your script, you heartless Dickensian slave driver, and the monkey can go free. All because you accumulated his random �good� hits, and forced a retype on his boo-boos.

04-26-2003, 04:35 PM	#1
Beleg_Strongbow Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Posts: 233	Monkeys and Typewriters While discussing evolution with my dad, he said "Well, I guess if you have a million monkeys working on a million typewriters, eventually you'll have the best book in the world!" That is a little bit true, but to really represent evolution, it would have to go something like this: Set a monkey in front of a computer. Start a blank word processer document. Type a simple sentence to start with, like "I like dogs." Then, have the monkey randomly select a word, or randomly select a space to type a new word. Then, the monkey can type a random new word. If the word is bad, like "I like hjgfh dogs", delete it. However, if it makes sense, like "I like two dogs.", then keep it. If you do this long enough, eventually, you will have a great novel. I don't suggest anybody try this with a monkey. If you can't picture a monkey at a computer, substitute it with a computer programmed to generate random letter patterns, the monkey is only there to represent randomization.

04-27-2003, 01:47 PM	#9
dublczek Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 132	Parable of the Monkeys http://www.angelfire.com/in/hypnoson...e_Monkeys.html

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04-26-2003, 05:16 PM	#2
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Actually, neither scenario is analogous. For it to be, you'd have to give the monkeys hundreds of thousands of years (if not millions) and set the room up so that the only way they would survive is by figuring out how to use the computers. It isn't just about time; it's about time plus survival, and/or mutations that occur over time that result in better survival techniques; in other words, it's dynamic, not static, like the roomful of monkeys.

04-26-2003, 05:29 PM	#3
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Just a comment Koy, but what you describe is not exactly an analogy, it's just an example of evolution.

04-26-2003, 05:42 PM	#4
Beleg_Strongbow Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Posts: 233	The monkeys are not the ones evolving, the "story" on the computer is. A random mutation occurs, if it works (it makes sense), it is kept, if not, it is discarded. That sounds a lot like evolution to me. It would take a LONG time to get up to a novel, but it is certainly possible.

04-27-2003, 01:00 PM	#7
EvolvEarth Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 90	I really don't know the correlation of biological evolution and monkeys on a typewriter is. Monkeys on a typewriter have nothing to do with natural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, and the such. Anyway, they've already created a program that could evolve itself to become more complex over time. I think it's called Avida--get your father to look into it.

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