Toto

That quote comes from a letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, from Jefferson at Monticello, February 10, 1814. The full copy is
<a href="http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/jefferson_cooper.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

The context: Jefferson is examining the precedent for Blackstone and Mansfield's claim that common law incorporates all or part of scripture. He finds that it there is no support for this, that common law goes back to the Saxons before they became Christian.

brighid

Toto -

Thanks!!

Brighid

Dark Jedi

Thanks for the link. It appears that I am banned from there. I do not make sock puppets or bypass bans, as I consider that to be rude, so I cannot rebutt. Can anyone else go provide this info? A note indicating that I was ejected before I could rebutt would be appreciated. Thanks.

Ford Prefect

I think a good, but under used, document is Jefferson's letter to Reverend Samuel Miller on why he refuses to call a day of prayer:

“... I consider the government of the U.S. as interdictated by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, or exercises. this results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the U.S. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government...”

In other word’s the government has no authority to mandate any kind of religious activity, Christen or otherwise.

A fun way to show the non-religious nature of the founding fathers can be found on the back of a dollar bill. It’s ironic that in the center of the bill are the words ‘In God We Trust’ (placed there in 1956) because right next to it, under the Masonic pyramid, is the phrase ‘Novus Ordo Seclorum’ (dating back to the founding). So right on our money we have both ‘In God we Trust’ and “The New Secular Order”.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]</p>

fromtheright

Ford Prefect,

Here, I think TJ was just wrong. It seems pretty obvious that an exhortation to the people to turn to God for guidance is not "power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline." There is no prescription, nor any authority/compulsion exercised. If you guys think that calling for a day of prayer is breaking down a wall of separation, then you really are rather paranoid.
As I understand, "Novus Ordo Seclorum" means "New Order of (or for) the ages". Why don't we both check the translation?

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]</p>

Ford Prefect

As I understand, "Novus Ordo Seclorum" means "New Order of (or for) the ages". Why don't we both check the translation?

I checked my Latin dictionary, it mean’s “New order of confinement”. What does this tell us? Either the founders were into fascism or I’m not very good at translation. I however found a web site that confirms that it means what you said it meant.

Here, I think TJ was just wrong.

As the humans the founding fathers were not necessarily perfect and therefore open to error like all humans. The subject of the board, as I read it, was not whether they were right but how they intended the country to be. I personally feel that Jefferson was right on this issue but wrong on others.

There is no prescription, nor any authority /compulsion exercised.

Jefferson Writes in the same letter:
“But it is only proposed that I recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the U.S. an authority over religious exercises which the constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant too that this recommendation is to carry some authority, and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it, not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of persecution perhaps in public opinion.”

My personal opinion is that a recommendation of prayer depends on how the recommendation is carried out. For instance shortly after Sept 11 Bush officially proclaimed a day of prayer. I think this violates separation of church and state because a official proclamation is governmental document, and therefore it becomes the governmental recommendation. I do believe that GWB can recommend a day of prayer using the social respect the rank of president (or resident) gives him.

One of the main reasons I posted it was that the quote, “Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government”, carry's a far more broad meaning beyond a day of prayer.

Oregon Slim

Best single example is the Post Office controversy, which raged for many years. Originally, US Post Offices were open for business on Sundays. Followers of Sunday Sabbath religions wanted to close Post Offices on Sundays and make all movement of the mail cease on that day. Big brouhaha.

This was a hot political issue, which Congress dodged by appointing (around 1825) a committee headed by a fellow name Johnson. Johnson was a hero of the Indian Wars and a Baptist. The Baptists in those days were strong supporters of separation of church and state, since they had to pay taxes to the Church of England during the colonial period. Johnson's committee concluded, with him agreeing, that the Post Office should operate on Sundays, that shutting it down to accomodate religious beliefs of some would be an unlawful government establishment of a preferred religion.

Toto

<a href="http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/seclorum.html" target="_blank">Novus Ordo Seclorum</a>

Ford Prefect

Thanks Toto