Dark Jedi

Hey folks. I haven't the time to rebut this claim, but it sorely needs it.
cpatriot500 on the Baptistboards posted a detailed claim that this was a Christian nation in it's founding, using mostly early court cases and decisions of the court.

The claims are <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000148&p=2" target="_blank">On this page</a>. You can rebut there, or outline the fallacies here and I can re-word them.

His source material appears to be <a href="http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> and <a href="http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm" target="_blank">here.</a>

I have seen similar arguements before, but this guy is getting a lot of attention, and needs a sound logical thrashing. I will be back on a bit Monday, and in force Tuesday. I appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks, folks.

Heleilu

I think the treaty with one of the Barbary States is classic evidence...but I don't know where to find an online copy of it.

Mageth

Reading the christian perspective on that page is scary. I wonder why they are blind to the fact that they appear to be striving for an American Taliban?

Buckster

The Treaty of Tripoli comes to mind.

"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion."

Here's an interesting page about it:

<a href="http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html" target="_blank">http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html</a>

hezekiah jones

I don't think it's even worth expending the effort to rebut that nonsense. He is citing state constitutions that have either been entirely re-written (for example, that of Delaware) or, in the case of New Hampshire's Article 6, were amended. Article 6 was amended in 1968 "to remove obsolete sectarian references," which pretty much defines his argument: obsolete.

I'm sorry, I can't be bothered reading much more of patriot's irrelevancies. Ask him to cite a case in the last 100 years or so wherein someone was prosecuted for "blasphemy." There are plenty of archaic laws on the books that simply wouldn't withstand constitutional scrutiny, were they to be enforced.

Most of these "Christian America" people are condemned to forever cite cases and laws that predate the current Constitution and Supreme Court interpretation by decades, if not centuries.

Mageth

Besides that, any such clause in states' constitutions would be trumped by the U.S. constitution on such matters.

The Other Jamie

You can send them to this site:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply&f=59&t=000082" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply&f=59&t=000082</a>

quoted:
``Probably,'' Story also wrote, ``at the time of the adoption of
the constitution and of the amendment to it, now under consideration,
the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that
Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as
was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the
freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to
make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference,
would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal
indignation.''\8\ The object, then, of the religion clauses in this view
was not to prevent general governmental encouragement of religion, of
Christianity, but to prevent religious persecution and to prevent a
national establishment.\9\

Jamie

The Other Jamie

OOPS wrong link...let me try again
<a href="http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=9913946744+0+0+0&WAISaction =retrieve" target="_blank">http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=9913946744+0+0+0&WAISaction =retrieve</a>
hope ths works.

Jamie

Toto

Jamie - can't figure out what you're trying to link to, or I would help. You can email me if you want.

The Other Jamie

OK, I'm going to try one more time.
<a href="http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi" target="_blank">http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi</a>
The site is an analysis of the constitution. Click the text highlighted on the categories and it will bring up some cases and interpretations.
This is the home page:
<a href="http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/" target="_blank">http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/</a>
If you want to do a search on your own scroll down to the search box.


Jamie (These links better work!)
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />