Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christian · 03-29-2003, 04:38 AM

I concur with Kevin's first post.

I would add though, that Luke 12:47-48 teaches differing degrees of punishment in hell. God is truly just, and you are punished in direct proportion to your deeds.

It also seems reasonable to me that someone with no "taste" for God would find spending eternity in His presence more hellish than eternal separation from Him.

The flames of hell are almost certainly figurative. Fire is consistently used throughout scripture as a symbol of judgment. When God says He is a consuming fire (Deut 4:24) He doesn't mean that He's a giant Bunsen Burner. He means that He is a God of judgment. Hell will be really bad, but we don't know all the details.

I submit that the eternal separation from God�s love and grace is the true punishment. People will know the good they are missing, even if it is intolerable to them to receive it.

Respectfully,

Christian

happyboy · 03-29-2003, 04:52 AM

GOD: "love Me, or else."

AVERAGE PERSON: "why? why should i love you?"

GOD: "because if you don't love Me, I'll torture you for all eternity."

AVERAGE PERSON: "wait a minute.....either i love You unconditionally, or else You're going to horribly torture me for all time??"

GOD: "absolutely. My love knows no limit, up to and including torturing the vast majority of humanity."

AVERAGE PERSON: "what the fuck?!? i can't believe in You, now! You're just a cosmic nutjob throwing around threats, and demanding love and attention like a needy child!"

GOD: "oh, yeah! well, take this!"

(lightning bolt strikes Average Person dead. AP's souls goes screaming down to hell.)

GOD: "dumb shit. if he had only shown Me love and honor...."

happyboy

Proxima Centauri · 03-29-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Those who do not love god will be tortured for all eternity. In other words, either you love god or you suffer unendingly. There is no choice involved. God, in this scenario, comes off as a jealous stalker who says, "if I can't have you, no one will" and then kills you.

There is nothing fair or just about this decision. In fact, it's worse than any decision Hitler ever made, because even Hitler was not capable of torturing people unendingly.

The Christian God is a tyrant, worse than Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

The bible is full of contradictions and absurdities. Fortunately there is no reason to believe the bible.

Ice · 03-29-2003, 01:11 PM

I just though of 2 different takes on this (sorry it took me so long - I've been an ex-Christian for too long I guess

) - isn't God the one who is the one who 'suffers' the most here? His own creation rebelling (sinning) against him?

And isn't suffering irrelevant to the concept of punishment? A sin is a sin, no matter how much one suffered.

happyboy · 03-29-2003, 02:45 PM

the bible is quite clear on who goes to heaven.

for men, it's those who accept christ into their hearts, and repent.

for women, it's those who accept christ into their hearts, AND have children before they die. (guess all the sterile women are going to hell regardless of whether they accept jesus, eh? what a loving God....)

so, unless you meet the criteria listed above, you're goin' to hell. that means that the jews of the holocaust are roasting in the pit right now.

a very angry happyboy

Socrates · 03-29-2003, 06:07 PM

"Those who love God will be able to do so for eternity, those who do not, will be able to not love God for eternity."

But what's love got to do with it at all? I thought the issue was whether we believe in Jesus as our saviour, not whether we love him or not. Are there now two conditions we have to meet for salvation, both believe in AND love Jesus/God?

And don't say "but you won't be able to help loving him for saving you from hell." If he threatened me with "believe in me or I'll let you be tortured" I don't think I could love him all that much. Maybe I could convince myself to believe in him, but I don't think I could even fake love in that case.

Magus55 · 03-29-2003, 06:57 PM

When you love God and have faith in Jesus, you come to realize emotionally and spiritually how completely lost you were without Him. You see your sins in a new light and realize how completely deserving of punishment you are. Its a humbling experience that makes you completely devoted and blessed for the pain and suffering Jesus endured for us when He never had to.

Thats not to say we aren't valuable. God wouldn't have saved us if we weren't valuable. But our sins separate us from God, and when we look at our sinful lives compared to God's holiness and Glory, we can't help but be humbled and ask for forgiveness. Guess its hard to explain, its a very deep experience emotionally and spiritually.

Queen of Swords · 03-29-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Thats not to say we aren't valuable. God wouldn't have saved us if we weren't valuable.

What is valuable about us, if all our good deeds are as filthy rags?

But our sins separate us from God, and when we look at our sinful lives compared to God's holiness and Glory,

When the Good Book describes an inconsistent, unreasonable, vicious deity who tortures people for ever if they happen to have been born in the wrong culture and indoctrinated in the wrong religion, I have to ask - where's the holiness in this? And if this is your definition of holiness, God ought to get along just fine with equally inconsistent and cruel sinners.

Ice · 03-30-2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Thats not to say we aren't valuable. God wouldn't have saved us if we weren't valuable.

If we were so valuable, why put such a high price tag for not believing he exists? I am only a human being, but I wouldn't put people in hell for not believing I exist.

Christian · 03-30-2003, 01:42 AM

Socrates,

The best analogy I have heard is from C.S. Lewis, who compared God to fuel and us to cars. We are designed to "run" on God. He is what truly makes us "go." He is true joy.

Belief is not merely intellectual assent ... even the demons have that. "Belief" means to trust, to live for.

I love God simply because of Who He is. What He has done is wonderful, but it is beside the point. When you encounter the living God you fall on your face and worship Him simply because He is infinite and personal and infinitely desireable.

Respectfully,

Christian

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03-29-2003, 04:38 AM	#21
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	I concur with Kevin's first post. I would add though, that Luke 12:47-48 teaches differing degrees of punishment in hell. God is truly just, and you are punished in direct proportion to your deeds. It also seems reasonable to me that someone with no "taste" for God would find spending eternity in His presence more hellish than eternal separation from Him. The flames of hell are almost certainly figurative. Fire is consistently used throughout scripture as a symbol of judgment. When God says He is a consuming fire (Deut 4:24) He doesn't mean that He's a giant Bunsen Burner. He means that He is a God of judgment. Hell will be really bad, but we don't know all the details. I submit that the eternal separation from God�s love and grace is the true punishment. People will know the good they are missing, even if it is intolerable to them to receive it. Respectfully, Christian

03-29-2003, 04:52 AM	#22
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	GOD: "love Me, or else." AVERAGE PERSON: "why? why should i love you?" GOD: "because if you don't love Me, I'll torture you for all eternity." AVERAGE PERSON: "wait a minute.....either i love You unconditionally, or else You're going to horribly torture me for all time??" GOD: "absolutely. My love knows no limit, up to and including torturing the vast majority of humanity." AVERAGE PERSON: "what the fuck?!? i can't believe in You, now! You're just a cosmic nutjob throwing around threats, and demanding love and attention like a needy child!" GOD: "oh, yeah! well, take this!" (lightning bolt strikes Average Person dead. AP's souls goes screaming down to hell.) GOD: "dumb shit. if he had only shown Me love and honor...." happyboy

03-29-2003, 01:11 PM	#24
Ice Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 206	I just though of 2 different takes on this (sorry it took me so long - I've been an ex-Christian for too long I guess ) - isn't God the one who is the one who 'suffers' the most here? His own creation rebelling (sinning) against him? And isn't suffering irrelevant to the concept of punishment? A sin is a sin, no matter how much one suffered.

03-29-2003, 02:45 PM	#25
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	the bible is quite clear on who goes to heaven. for men, it's those who accept christ into their hearts, and repent. for women, it's those who accept christ into their hearts, AND have children before they die. (guess all the sterile women are going to hell regardless of whether they accept jesus, eh? what a loving God....) so, unless you meet the criteria listed above, you're goin' to hell. that means that the jews of the holocaust are roasting in the pit right now. a very angry happyboy

03-29-2003, 06:07 PM	#26
Socrates Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 27	"Those who love God will be able to do so for eternity, those who do not, will be able to not love God for eternity." But what's love got to do with it at all? I thought the issue was whether we believe in Jesus as our saviour, not whether we love him or not. Are there now two conditions we have to meet for salvation, both believe in AND love Jesus/God? And don't say "but you won't be able to help loving him for saving you from hell." If he threatened me with "believe in me or I'll let you be tortured" I don't think I could love him all that much. Maybe I could convince myself to believe in him, but I don't think I could even fake love in that case.

03-29-2003, 06:57 PM	#27
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	When you love God and have faith in Jesus, you come to realize emotionally and spiritually how completely lost you were without Him. You see your sins in a new light and realize how completely deserving of punishment you are. Its a humbling experience that makes you completely devoted and blessed for the pain and suffering Jesus endured for us when He never had to. Thats not to say we aren't valuable. God wouldn't have saved us if we weren't valuable. But our sins separate us from God, and when we look at our sinful lives compared to God's holiness and Glory, we can't help but be humbled and ask for forgiveness. Guess its hard to explain, its a very deep experience emotionally and spiritually.

03-29-2003, 08:25 PM	#28
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Thats not to say we aren't valuable. God wouldn't have saved us if we weren't valuable. What is valuable about us, if all our good deeds are as filthy rags? But our sins separate us from God, and when we look at our sinful lives compared to God's holiness and Glory, When the Good Book describes an inconsistent, unreasonable, vicious deity who tortures people for ever if they happen to have been born in the wrong culture and indoctrinated in the wrong religion, I have to ask - where's the holiness in this? And if this is your definition of holiness, God ought to get along just fine with equally inconsistent and cruel sinners.

03-30-2003, 01:42 AM	#30
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Socrates, The best analogy I have heard is from C.S. Lewis, who compared God to fuel and us to cars. We are designed to "run" on God. He is what truly makes us "go." He is true joy. Belief is not merely intellectual assent ... even the demons have that. "Belief" means to trust, to live for. I love God simply because of Who He is. What He has done is wonderful, but it is beside the point. When you encounter the living God you fall on your face and worship Him simply because He is infinite and personal and infinitely desireable. Respectfully, Christian

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