Freethought & Rationalism Archive

annelise · 03-28-2003, 04:55 AM

I first started reading the 'Origin of species' book by Charles Darwin and then slowly progressed to reading Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker". Everyday my mind is full of the mysteries and wonders of life and I am glad that there are a number of great scientists, past and present that continue from where Darwin left off! Each time a person finds out that I am a Secular Humanist, I am bombarded with questions on how can life be so complex and be just by chance. I think my only appropriate answer is that "Evolution is fact!".

Oolon Colluphid · 03-28-2003, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by annelise
I first started reading the 'Origin of species' book by Charles Darwin

Blimey, most people don't read that till a lot later... or never get around to it

(so much for Darwinism as a religion -- we don't even read our holy book!

).

Quote:

I and then slowly progressed to reading Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker". Everyday my mind is full of the mysteries and wonders of life and I am glad that there are a number of great scientists, past and present that continue from where Darwin left off! Each time a person finds out that I am a Secular Humanist, I am bombarded with questions on how can life be so complex and be just by chance.

Well if you've read TBW, you'll know that it is absolutely not by chance!

Quote:

I think my only appropriate answer is that "Evolution is fact!".

Gotta disagree. The appropriate answers are:

How? By incremental steps, not a single big jump.

By chance? No, by the opposite: by selection.

The straw man these people use is so wide of the mark that it is nearly nonsensical.

Welcome to Infidels, btw!

Cheers, DT

annelise · 03-28-2003, 05:43 AM

I fully concur with everything you say. I am still learning on how to respond to people's questions on my beliefs. I hope that as the years go by I will have the wisdom to know exactly how to respond.

Oolon Colluphid · 03-28-2003, 05:59 AM

Hanging around here is the best way I know of. You'll get plenty of practice, with people backing you up with further info, and picking you up if you slip up somewhere!

Cheers, DT

Psychic · 03-28-2003, 09:03 AM

The first step to become a strong atheist is exactly what you are doing now. to admit ignorance and seek knowledge. not a time during our lifes should we give up this. there will always more books to read, more arguments to defend against ...etc
becoming an atheists require an uncomparable effort to being a theist. your holy book is the knowledge of the univerese.

Stuck in evolution? wait until you are being questioned about the origin of the univerese, I recommend that you make ready your copy of "a brief history of time" and "the universe in a nutshell" by Stephen Hawkin.

Albion · 03-28-2003, 12:27 PM

Annelise, have you found the TalkOrigins site yet?

http://www.talkorigins.org/

You might also find this one interesting:

http://www.freeinquiry.com/

Mageth · 03-28-2003, 01:01 PM

Stuck in evolution? wait until you are being questioned about the origin of the univerese, I recommend that you make ready your copy of "a brief history of time" and "the universe in a nutshell" by Stephen Hawkin.

Excellent recommendations. I would also recommend "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by Daniel Dennett (not about the origin of the universe, but it does include some excellent discussion of abiogenesis, evolution, etc.)

annelise · 03-28-2003, 01:32 PM

I have read "A Brief History of Time" By Stephen Hawkins and it was fantastic. I own about 50 books on Science information including massive current biology textbook and allsorts of science magazines from America and Australia. I am not very confident at the moment on what to write as I have no idea on what you guy's what like to talk about or want to read. I am just about to blow up 200 balloons for my son's 5th birthday and I believe I will probably become unconcious by the end of it.

Thanks for responding guy's! I'll be back soon.

Godot · 03-28-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darwin's Terrier

How? By incremental steps, not a single big jump.

By chance? No, by the opposite: by selection.

The straw man these people use is so wide of the mark that it is nearly nonsensical.

Welcome to Infidels, btw!

Cheers, DT [/B]

I'm not sure I agree with the distinction you are making between chance and selection. I know I'm being pedantic, but selection infers a conscious decision, a choice. In practice, the selection occurs as a result of adaptation to the pressures of the ecosystem. How did the adaptation emerge? By chance; it is a random event. Selection is applicable only by the effectiveness of this adaptation to survive in the ecosystem.

nj_heathens · 03-28-2003, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godot
I know I'm being pedantic, but selection infers a conscious decision, a choice.

No, it does not.

Natural selection is not even a force as such. There is no "guiding hand" making selections to direct evolution in some particular direction.

We infer natural selection by observing that some organisms leave more offspring than others.

The distinction between "blind chance" and selection is similar to the distinction between a 747 self-assembling from a pile of junk and aviation technology progressing through decades of experimentation before finally being able to design a jumbo jet.

In other words, evolution by selection is far more probable than animals being formed by blind chance.

Mr. Heathen

03-28-2003, 04:55 AM	#1
annelise Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 8	evolution ( Richard Dawkins ) I first started reading the 'Origin of species' book by Charles Darwin and then slowly progressed to reading Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker". Everyday my mind is full of the mysteries and wonders of life and I am glad that there are a number of great scientists, past and present that continue from where Darwin left off! Each time a person finds out that I am a Secular Humanist, I am bombarded with questions on how can life be so complex and be just by chance. I think my only appropriate answer is that "Evolution is fact!".

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03-28-2003, 05:43 AM	#3
annelise Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 8	I fully concur with everything you say. I am still learning on how to respond to people's questions on my beliefs. I hope that as the years go by I will have the wisdom to know exactly how to respond.

03-28-2003, 05:59 AM	#4
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Hanging around here is the best way I know of. You'll get plenty of practice, with people backing you up with further info, and picking you up if you slip up somewhere! Cheers, DT

03-28-2003, 09:03 AM	#5
Psychic Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Jordan Posts: 133	The first step to become a strong atheist is exactly what you are doing now. to admit ignorance and seek knowledge. not a time during our lifes should we give up this. there will always more books to read, more arguments to defend against ...etc becoming an atheists require an uncomparable effort to being a theist. your holy book is the knowledge of the univerese. Stuck in evolution? wait until you are being questioned about the origin of the univerese, I recommend that you make ready your copy of "a brief history of time" and "the universe in a nutshell" by Stephen Hawkin.

03-28-2003, 12:27 PM	#6
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	Annelise, have you found the TalkOrigins site yet? http://www.talkorigins.org/ You might also find this one interesting: http://www.freeinquiry.com/

03-28-2003, 01:01 PM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Stuck in evolution? wait until you are being questioned about the origin of the univerese, I recommend that you make ready your copy of "a brief history of time" and "the universe in a nutshell" by Stephen Hawkin. Excellent recommendations. I would also recommend "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by Daniel Dennett (not about the origin of the universe, but it does include some excellent discussion of abiogenesis, evolution, etc.)

03-28-2003, 01:32 PM	#8
annelise Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 8	I have read "A Brief History of Time" By Stephen Hawkins and it was fantastic. I own about 50 books on Science information including massive current biology textbook and allsorts of science magazines from America and Australia. I am not very confident at the moment on what to write as I have no idea on what you guy's what like to talk about or want to read. I am just about to blow up 200 balloons for my son's 5th birthday and I believe I will probably become unconcious by the end of it. Thanks for responding guy's! I'll be back soon.

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