River

-I dont want to sound rude. but i'm burned out for the day.

I am going to get myself into a nice airconditioned room.

and tomorrow i will present some tangible proof.

haverbob

That may be. I can't find that out so I made what I thought to be a reasonable assumption. That's all I could do for now. However the real, specific question is whether he read the English version or the Arabic, not what languages he speaks. Also, consider the fact that he talks about it in English, so he has to use the English translation to explain his points. That we can both agree on. And the English translation does not appear to be problematic for neither you nor he. It's problematic when we get to the sun in a body of water, the Jinn and shooting stars or anything that might be the least problematic or the least bit challenging to your knowledge of science. Then, suddenly the English translation becomes faulty.

Can't you see what's going on here?
You most certainly are not. In fact I compliment your politeness and patience. I like THAT part about you.
That would be fine. I would appreciate that. However, I am hoping that you won't merely give me interpretations that suit your needs. That is starting to get pointless. However, if you are trying to get tangible proof, then you are starting to understand how to interact in this forum. Good for you. But I will look at this proof with careful inspection. You would agree that Allah gave us a brain so that we would use it. If someone told you that you could make a million dollars per year selling Amway, I would think that you would want to see just a little proof before you bother making the commitment to sell Amway products. You wouldn't accept "just trust me" or "focus on this and ignore that". That much I think I can be sure of about you.

Consequent Infidel

Liar....

the quran says that the earth is flat in MANY verses.



Do they not look at the camels how they are made.
And the sky how it is raised high.
And the mountains how they are fixed firm.
And the earth how it is spread out?
(Wa ilal'ardi kayfa sutihat.)
-- Sura 88:17-20
Interpretation given in Al-Jalalein:


At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched, so they can see in it a sign for the power of Allah ... and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama' ash-shar'a (the shari'a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay'a (the laymen)." (Tafseer Al-Jalalein. printed in Damascus 1964. Al-Mallah Printshop and Bookstore)
(*) The word "sutihat" is from the root word "sataha".

Note: The commentators are well informed about the scientific conclusion that the earth is a globe, but the scientists are considered to be laymen in regard to understanding the meaning of the Qur'an. Because revelation has primacy over science, the Qur'an is the decisive basis for the commentators to insist that the earth is flat.

Furthermore, the Qur'an says:

And after that He spread the earth.
(Wal'arda ba'da dhalika da-ha-ha.)
-- Sura 79:30
Again, let us consult Tafsir Al-Jalalein:

That is: "Basataha" as it was created before heaven without "Dahoo".
We see that Al-Jalalein is emphasizing the issue of "flattening". The interpreters are saying: "That is, He flattened it since it was not made flat before heaven was created."

Reading the context of this aya, Sura 79:27-33, the message of the Qur'an seems to be: Originally the earth was not flat (but somehow crumbled up?). After first creating the heaven over it (see 79:28-29), Allah flattened the earth (to make it inhabitable: ("A provision for you and for your cattle" 79:33).

COMMENT:

Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:


"da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
And that is exactly what Al-Jalalein has said.
"da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)
"al-udh'y, al-idhi'y, al-udhu'wa, al-udhi'ya: The egg of the ostrich in the sand."
We must pay attention to what Al-Munjid is saying here: "The egg of the ostrich `in the sand'" and the following is the reason for this expression:

When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it). That is where the name came from. The Arabic dictionary never states that the verb "da'ha" means "made round" or "made in the shape of the egg of an ostrich".

Other verses in the Qur'an stated that earth is flat using other words. All of these words are interpreted as "flat" and none of them has been interpreted as round.

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalein as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.

If Muhammad or the author of the Qur'an really had known that the earth is round, and had wanted to mention this fact in the book, he could have used a more simple word in Arabic to put an end to this puzzling issue. We have no doubt that Muhammad was aware of the existence of other words in the Arabic language that can describe the shape of something round. In fact, we read in sura 81:1 (At'Takweer - meaning: Rounding!)

"Itha'sh-shamsu kuwirat": "When the sun is folded up."
In this verse, Muhammad is predicting that "the sun shall be folded up" or "shall become rounded" (which would be a better translation). This means first of all that Muhammad believed that the sun is also a flat disc and that it will become round when the hour comes. And this also means that he knows that there is a better word to describe a round shape. Therefore: Why he didn't use this term to to spare the Muslims this confusion?

:notworthy

Consequent Infidel

this verse is best explained in these Hadiths of muhammad :



Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:

Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)
The translator has an interesting footnote here:

The procedure of the sun mentioned in this Hadith and similar other things mentioned in the Qur’an like the prostration of the trees, herbs and stars (V. 55:6) are beyond our limited knowledge of this universe. It is interpreted that these are mentioned so because of the limited understanding of the people at that time about matters of the universe.

Not only do the Quran and Hadith reflect the limited understanding of the people, but also Muhammad himself shared the people's ignorance regarding the orbit of the constellations. Muhammad then tried to pass this erroneous understanding off as revelation from God.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.


COMMENTS
It is clear from these hadiths that Muhammad literally believed that the sun is traveling on a fixed course. This course begins from the moment the sun rises till it prostrates itself before God's throne, from which it returns back on its course. This further implies that Allah actually lives somewhere in space, otherwise we are forced to assume that the sun travels outside the physical universe and actually enters into the spiritual realm.

Yet, this would affirm that heaven is a location where Allah's throne occupies a certain section, further implying that Allah is not an omnipresent entity. Rather, this implies that Allah is an entity that has an actual body, albeit a spiritual one, much like angels have spiritual bodies that occupy spatial dimensions.

This conclusion is supported by Ibn Kathir's commentary on S. 36:38:

There are two views over the meaning of the phrase ...

<on its fixed course for a term (appointed).> (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, BEYOND the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the ROOF of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is A DOME SUPPORTED BY LEGS OR PILLARS, CARRIED BY THE ANGELS, and it is ABOVE the universe, ABOVE the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to the Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Dharr, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "I was with the Prophet in the Masjid at sunset, and he said: ...

((O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?)) I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger know best.’ He said: ...

((It goes and prostrates itself beneath the Throne, and that is what Allah says: <And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.>))

It was also reported that Abu Dharr, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "I asked the Messenger of Allah about the Ayah: ...

<And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term.>

He said: ...

((Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.))"

(The second view) is that this refers to when the sun's appointed time comes to an end, which will be on the Day of Resurrection, when its fixed course will be abolished, it will come to a halt an it will be rolled up. This world will come to an end, and that will be the end of its appointed time. This is the fixed course of its time ... (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged, Volume 8 Surat Al-Ahzab, Verse 51 to the end of Surat Ad-Dukhan, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houtson, New York, London, Lahore; September 2000, first edition], pp. 196-197; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Third, since Muhammad has actually given his interpretation of S. 36:38, and since Muslims believe that everything Muhammad said was inspired, this means that any appeal to scientists for the exegesis of this passage is entirely unfounded and misplaced. Yet Muhammad's interpretation leaves irreconcilable contradictions with well-established scientific facts.

This essentially means that Muslims are forced to either reject Muhammad's statements in the Hadith and commentaries, or reject the findings of scientists by assuming that they are all in error.

Yet to adopt the former is to reject one of the essential pillars of Islam, namely the Sunnah of Muhammad which is to be found in these hadiths, as well as other Muslim sources. This would also mean that Muslims must adopt science as a criterion to judge the Quran for truth and error. This approach makes science higher and greater in authority than the alleged revelation of Allah. Yet to reject the findings of scientists as false is to lose any credibility and respect among the scientific and intellectual community.

Finally, Muhammad's claim that the sun travels in a fixed course presumes that the earth is stationary, a fact supported by the following hadiths:

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 513:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established till the sun rises from the west, and when it rises (from the west) and the people see it, then all of them will believe (in Allah). But that will be the time when ‘No good it will do to a soul to believe then. If it believed not before ...’" (6.158)
The Hour will be established (so suddenly) that two persons spreading a garment between them will not be able to finish their bargain, nor will they be able to fold it up. The Hour will be established while a man is carrying the milk of his she-camel, but cannot drink it; and the Hour will be established when someone is not able to prepare the tank to water his livestock from it; and the Hour will be established when some of you has raised his food to his mouth but cannot eat it."


Sahih Muslim

Book 041, Number 7025:

Abdullah b. 'Amr reported: I committed to memory a hadith from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and I did not forget it after I had heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The first sign would be the appearance of the sun from the west, the appearance of the beast before the people in the forenoon and which of the two happens first, the second one would follow immediately after that.

Consequent Infidel

anyone can say anything for saudi oil money.

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm

Consequent Infidel

THE QURAN SAYS THAT SEMEN IS PRODUCED FROM THE BACKBONE AND RIBS:

[6] He is created from a drop emitted,

[7] Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

(chapter 86)

haverbob

Wow !!! I don't know any of that shit !! Can you back this up? (although it seems as though you can, if you are quoting all of that arabic stuff, but I don't know enough to say whether you are correct or not). It seems as though you are responding to River's claim that the English version can never be interpreted correctly by the Arabic language and therefore you are showing your command of Arabic interpretation. You lost me. I'll warn you that you are in for a mind game that is better than any politician could dream of. Wait till you find the brick wall and then you will see that you may very well be wasting your time. Maybe you'll have better luck than me, but I doubt it. Whether River knows it or not, he is a master debater. He knows the key to debates. That is, "to be a brick wall". I don't know who taught him this but he has learned well and you have a more worthy opponent than you may think, because the brick wall will always win, because the person seen talking to the brick wall, will always look like a fool. I have already lost.

Consequent Infidel

the Quran has several Gross scientific errors and nonesence wich led me to disbelieve in it after a long journey of research...and yet these Liars like River use twisted english translations and claim that it has scientific facts foretold ! that is not very strange for the followers of a religion that Says its ok to lie if the purpose is good .


here is more bullshit :

Seest thou not that Allah has made subject to you (men) all that is on the earth, and the ships that sail through the sea by His Command? He withholds the sky from failing on the earth except by His leave: for Allah is Most Kind and Most Merciful to man. S. 22:65

(íãÓß ÇáÓãÇÁ Çä ÊÞÚ Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ ÇáÇ ÈÇÐäå)

doesn't that remind you of the old greek idea of Atlas or whatever holding the sky? the only conclusion that can be driven from that that the quran views the sky as a solid object, and this can be assured by reading this verse:

And We have made the heavens as a roof well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to) ! (21:32)

(æ ÌÚáäÇ ÇáÓãÇÁ ÕÞÝÇ ãÍÝæÙÇ)

because the quran views the sky as a roof that has no "rifts" in it :

Do they not look at the sky above them? How We have made it and adorned it, and there are no rifts in it? (50:6)

wich makes quite clear that the quran views the sky as a solid roof that hasw no rifts in it , otherwise how can it say "look at the sky how it has no rifts in it" while its just VOID?


THE STARS ARE THERE AS MISSLES TO DRIVE AWAY EVIL SPIRITS !!!!

And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ...
-- Sura 67:5
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans.
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.
-- Sura 37:6-8

See also Suras 15:16-18, 55:33-35 etc. which seem to speak about the same thing.

The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view.




the quran is not any better than the bible.

haverbob

Sorry but, "silly fool, it aint gonna' work". Already been there, done that, in a very effecient manner. You'll see. But nice try. I'll give you that. Try and remember my brick wall example. You'll see, soon enough, and then you will be a fool as I am. A fool for talking to a brick wall. How does that make you feel??? It didn't make me feel very good (but who cares, I have fun being a fool). I hope you do as well. You'll find out soon enough. I'm sorry that you wasted your keystrokes because perhaps you have some interesting things to say (although I already know the basic jist of them). This guy is a load of fun, enjoy his evasiveness and denial (as I have done).

Consequent Infidel

wtf are you talking about?