Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 06-26-2002, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hedwig:


Son of a....

With the way people are acting you'd think that a bunch of atheists were taking to the streets of San Francisco and sacrificing Christians to satan.

Hi Hedwig,

I just looked out the window and it isn't happening on my block. Should I get with the program/pogrom and round up some God-full Pledgers?

cheers,
Michael

SanDiegoAtheist · 06-26-2002, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by One of last of the sane:
There's a Quick Vote poll at <a href="http://www.cnn.com," target="_blank">www.cnn.com,</a> but at the time of writing this, 76% of respondents disagree with the ruling. Get in there and cast your votes, fellow Infidels!

I'm actually relatively PLEASED at the numbers in favor of this ruling that are showing up on the polls (considering only about 14% of the US is secular).

At last check, 24% on CNN, 16% on USA Today, 43!!!% on CNN-FN, and even the mainstream bastion of rightwing news coverage Fox had 10%.

I plan on writing my Senator with these figures, and pointing out politely that this is a pretty large minority, and that the Bill of Rights was NOT intended to protect the rights of the MAJORITY, but of the MINORITIES.

There'd be no reason for the Bill of Rights if the majority was always right.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

southernhybrid · 06-26-2002, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Did anyone else just see our congress standing out on the steps saying the pledge in defiance of the CA judge?

I saw it and I knew that this ruling will never last. What a bunch of fools we have trying to run this country.

You would think that more Xians would see how this ruling protects all of us. This ruling is about our freedom but our so called leaders have a way of making it sound perverse. Why can't they just practise their religions everywhere except in government.

I guess I'll have to keep saying "under dog" when I do volunteer work at my local school and the students salute the flag.

copernicus · 06-26-2002, 04:37 PM

I was stunned and pleased by this news, but I am afraid that it will be nothing more than a pyhrric victory in the short term. The 99-0 vote by the Senate is enough to show where this is going to end up politically. The Supreme Court will reverse it. Conservatives will use it to bludgeon liberals, and we may well end up with a more oppressive atmosphere for religious freedom than we had in the past. So I am not happy about our chances in the short term.

On the other hand, it is a good thing in the long run. This is a boil that needed to be lanced. Nonbelievers have suddenly become visible, and the Godless march is going to get much more media attention next November. Most Americans may not approve of the court decision, but this is an opportunity for the public to debate an issue that has been consciously ignored for decades. More importantly, a lot of children are going to get a civics lesson. They will be forced to think about what the first amendment really means. It may take a generation or two, but nonbelievers are suddenly becoming a minority that has to be reckoned with. The thing about young people is that, for all their naivete and lack of education, they have better bullshit detectors than adults. This is going to get interesting in the next few decades.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]

One of the last sane · 06-26-2002, 04:40 PM

Maybe its time to drop the Pledge anyway. Its a corny idea really. I've visited Britain and Australia and in both countries got an earful from people about how childish it is to say the Pledge, and that they really resent that their kids (not US citizens) are expected to say it if they are living in the US.

ashibaka · 06-26-2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by copernicus:
The Supreme Court will reverse it.

Everyone's saying this, but how the heck can they reverse it? The logic of the turnover is totally valid. To overturn the appeals court's ruling, they'd have to submit a ruling with just one clause, "We're right and you're wrong", without further explanation. Or something like that.

SanDiegoAtheist · 06-26-2002, 04:47 PM

I agree with Copernicus. Even with the 10 Commandment brouhaha's which have been happening throughout the nation, this is a real wakeup call to the nonbelievers.

They marginalize us. They marginalize us for standing up for our rights. They marginalize us for not believing what they believe. And they will CONTINUE to do so, until we push their hypocrisy into their face often enough, and hard enough that they finally realize exactly HOW unjust their actions have been. 99-0 (and the one not present would've absolutely made it 100-0 (Henry Hyde I believe)) is a slap in the face to every nonbeliever who is a proud American.

A comparison that has been drawn often enough before, and one that I think is completely justified, would be our struggle for acceptance, and the gay/lesbian struggle for acceptance. We are (sadly) right about where THEY were about 30 years ago - condemned to the shadows & ignored by so-called 'polite society'. Until we start making enough noise, that's where we will stay.

We represent a very disproportionate percentage of the intellectual elite of the country - we really should be able to figure out a way to use that in our favor.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Toto · 06-26-2002, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ashibaka:


Everyone's saying this, but how the heck can they reverse it? The logic of the turnover is totally valid. To overturn the appeals court's ruling, they'd have to submit a ruling with just one clause, "We're right and you're wrong", without further explanation. Or something like that.

They could just cite Bush v. Gore.

But seriously, they could go with the dissent that says "under God" has really very little religious content so what's your problem. And they don't have to say any more.

Buffman · 06-26-2002, 04:54 PM

TPaine

Then I'd have to say this is wrong but how can you compare what is happening as said in your link to the pledge with two words "under god" which kids don't even have to say?

Two word phases: "under Allah"..."Zieg Hiel"..."Hail Mary"..."I do"...just imagine how many two word phases, when mandated by authority and repeated enough times, can condition the immature mind to believe in something evil or not fact.

Is "God" a secular word. I have no idea what dictionary you are using, but all of mine define "God," with a capitol "G," as a supernatural religious icon. Even the small "g" god is a religious symbol.

(Added the "I do")

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Viti · 06-26-2002, 04:57 PM

A Las Vegas news poll asked "Should the Pledge be allowed in our schools"...Do they not GET IT...the pledge itself or saying the pledge is not the issue! It's the 2 words "under God"...thats it! Remove the words, keep the pledge.

Why do they insist on spinning and twisting it dammit

06-26-2002, 04:37 PM	#224
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	I was stunned and pleased by this news, but I am afraid that it will be nothing more than a pyhrric victory in the short term. The 99-0 vote by the Senate is enough to show where this is going to end up politically. The Supreme Court will reverse it. Conservatives will use it to bludgeon liberals, and we may well end up with a more oppressive atmosphere for religious freedom than we had in the past. So I am not happy about our chances in the short term. On the other hand, it is a good thing in the long run. This is a boil that needed to be lanced. Nonbelievers have suddenly become visible, and the Godless march is going to get much more media attention next November. Most Americans may not approve of the court decision, but this is an opportunity for the public to debate an issue that has been consciously ignored for decades. More importantly, a lot of children are going to get a civics lesson. They will be forced to think about what the first amendment really means. It may take a generation or two, but nonbelievers are suddenly becoming a minority that has to be reckoned with. The thing about young people is that, for all their naivete and lack of education, they have better bullshit detectors than adults. This is going to get interesting in the next few decades. [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>

06-26-2002, 04:54 PM	#229
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	TPaine Then I'd have to say this is wrong but how can you compare what is happening as said in your link to the pledge with two words "under god" which kids don't even have to say? Two word phases: "under Allah"..."Zieg Hiel"..."Hail Mary"..."I do"...just imagine how many two word phases, when mandated by authority and repeated enough times, can condition the immature mind to believe in something evil or not fact. Is "God" a secular word. I have no idea what dictionary you are using, but all of mine define "God," with a capitol "G," as a supernatural religious icon. Even the small "g" god is a religious symbol. (Added the "I do") [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

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06-26-2002, 04:40 PM	#225
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	Maybe its time to drop the Pledge anyway. Its a corny idea really. I've visited Britain and Australia and in both countries got an earful from people about how childish it is to say the Pledge, and that they really resent that their kids (not US citizens) are expected to say it if they are living in the US.

06-26-2002, 04:47 PM	#227
SanDiegoAtheist Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: San Diego, CA, USA Posts: 281	I agree with Copernicus. Even with the 10 Commandment brouhaha's which have been happening throughout the nation, this is a real wakeup call to the nonbelievers. They marginalize us. They marginalize us for standing up for our rights. They marginalize us for not believing what they believe. And they will CONTINUE to do so, until we push their hypocrisy into their face often enough, and hard enough that they finally realize exactly HOW unjust their actions have been. 99-0 (and the one not present would've absolutely made it 100-0 (Henry Hyde I believe)) is a slap in the face to every nonbeliever who is a proud American. A comparison that has been drawn often enough before, and one that I think is completely justified, would be our struggle for acceptance, and the gay/lesbian struggle for acceptance. We are (sadly) right about where THEY were about 30 years ago - condemned to the shadows & ignored by so-called 'polite society'. Until we start making enough noise, that's where we will stay. We represent a very disproportionate percentage of the intellectual elite of the country - we really should be able to figure out a way to use that in our favor. Cheers, The San Diego Atheist

06-26-2002, 04:57 PM	#230
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	A Las Vegas news poll asked "Should the Pledge be allowed in our schools"...Do they not GET IT...the pledge itself or saying the pledge is not the issue! It's the 2 words "under God"...thats it! Remove the words, keep the pledge. Why do they insist on spinning and twisting it dammit

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