Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 11-06-2002, 06:51 PM

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001831" target="_blank">At first I posted my 'interesting problem' in MD; on reflection, I think it should be here. </a>

Today, Nov. 6, the Star-Mercury came out again- and the headline for the letters section is the title here. The letter, from a Mr. John Dresser, goes:

"Regarding the letter from Mr. John Barnes Jr. who extolled the virtues of atheism and bashed theism, I am not writing to debate him as I'm sure that there are many readers who are more qualified than I am for the task. My goal in writing is threefold: to commend Mr. Bob Tribble for being a consistent witness in his editorials; briefly review some of the statements made by Mr. Barnes while pointing out the flaws in his thinking; and finally to encourage your readers, both those who know their saviour and those who do not. In order to critique Mr. Barnes' letter, we need to set the stage if you will, so those who may not be acquainted with this subject can take part in the discussion.(1)

Theism is the belief in or in the existence of, God, a god, or gods, as opposed to atheism. Theism is not a word we use every day.(2) Usually we like to say we are religious, or someone has religion. The word religion is a big umbrella that covers everything from Animalism (3) to Zen. Let's narrow our discussion down to Christianity. (4) Christians are people who have made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (5) We believe that He is Lord- Lord of heaven and earth, and everything between. We could write volumes about Christianity and never define it exactly to everyone's liking. (6) That's why we have many different denominations of Christians. (7)

In the first paragraph of Mr. Barnes' letter, he says that God is fictional, without truth. (8) But the historical truth is that God in fact proved His existence when He came in the flesh as the second person of the trinity, Jesus Christ, who was born of the virgin Mary, grew up in Palestine, performed hundreds of miracles, (9) was crucified by Pontius Pilate, was buried, and rose again three days later. (10) These are truths that are attested to by hundreds of witnesses, not only in the Bible, but by historians of that era. (11)

In his fourth paragraph, Mr. Barnes says that in America our prisons are filled mostly by people of religion, not free thinkers like himself. Although I cannot produce any scientific survey of the religious preference of our prison population, (12) I would like to point out that in America religious people rarely get sent to prison. (13) If what he says is true, maybe these people were godless when they went to prison, saw the error of their ways and got religion. (14)

Mr. Barnes goes on to say that atheists do not inspire zealotry. Zealots were a fanatical Jewish party who revolted against Roman occupation in AD 6-70. The term is commonly used today to describe a person who is filled with or incited by zeal, or enthusiastic. Mr. Barnes sounds like a zealous atheist to me. (15)

He also says that atheists do not inspire people to fly planes into buildings. What he didn't say was that atheists build iron curtains, enslave nations, exterminate dissenters, and abolish free speech, just to name a few of their accomplishments. (16)

Mr. Barnes then goes on about all the selfish Christians he has met. I don't know who he has in mind, but I wish he would tell us how many hospitals, orphanages, and other charitable organizations atheists have founded. Atheists sound like a pretty selfish bunch to me.

Mr. Barnes then invites us to chat with him and other atheists on their web page- I don't even think so. (17)

Enough of Mr. Barnes' atheism. I think that by now everyone can see that his arguments are without fact. (18) If this is all new to you and you would like to know the facts about God and His love for you, please call or see one of the many pastors in your community. (19)

I would like to close by encouraging every Christian to be a godly influence whenever they can. To sow the seed of God's truth whenever you are able and to be bold in proclaiming the name of Jesus to everyone. Perhaps if Mr. Barnes hears the truth often enough, he might come to know Jesus Christ as his saviour as well. (20)

My commentary:
(1) Sorry guy, Mr. Tribble won't let his paper become a discussion forum. You can come here to II, though.

(2) Well, maybe you don't, but then you aren't a mod on the EoG forum...

(3) I am pretty sure he means 'animism'.

(4) Seeing as how you know zilch about any of the others...

(5) Maybe we've heard all this before?

(6) Perhaps that's why Christians have fought all those wars about it?

(7) Only because no one has been able to exterminate all the others.

(8) Actually it was the third paragraph.

(9) Hundreds, huh? Let's see a list.

(10) Does anyone else get the feeling this guy's a preacher?

(11) Let's see your references, bub.

(12) Unlike Mr. Barnes, who could, and did.

(13) Snicker, snicker, snicker!

(14) So, perhaps we should send all our kids to prison too- that way none of them will turn out to be atheists, or bad people!

(15) Well... I *am* kinda enthusiatic, I guess.

(16)

(17) CHICKEN!!!! BA-AWCKKK!!! CLUCK CLUCK CLUCK!

(18) Liar, liar, pants on fire!

(19) Bring money. Hey, you don't think all those pastors are supported by God, do you?

(20) Yeah, right- lie to me enough times, and I'll become a true believer. Maybe I should send in a letter every week for the next 20 years, to see if this method works on you?

-
-
Well, that was only slightly amusing. Mr. Dresser would not make too good a troll here, I think, so it's no loss that he won't come. But if I get only one person to join II- as a believer, or as an atheist- I'll consider my time and trouble writing all this well spent. Jobar.

randomsyllable · 11-06-2002, 07:02 PM

I like how he wrote that entire pice, yet failed to once factually quote you, or provide countering evidence.

Hmmm - it's a good thing he leaves debate to others ;p

RufusAtticus · 11-06-2002, 07:57 PM

Are you going to respond, Jobar?

Tear the moron to pieces.

Jobar · 11-06-2002, 08:10 PM

No, I think not, Rufus. I mean, this dolt would get no more than a yawn in RR&P, and QoS would swallow him without chewing- he's simply not worth it. Anyone who can't see that he addressed not one thing I really said, and that most of his letter was just a Sunday School lesson, would not learn anything from my reply. He's boring, and beneath my notice. I only posted his whine here because I said I'd keep you all up to date on what responses I got.

If anyone comes up with a better response- I'm not holding my breath- I'll note it here. B)

David M. Payne · 11-06-2002, 10:51 PM

Typical crap from the theist side. I agree, let it go. He said nothing in rebuttal to your piece.

And from the other thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne:
<strong>Congrats John, you the man! Let us know if it gets ink in the big daily, they should have a web presence.

David</strong>

David

Novowels · 11-06-2002, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
<strong>...QoS would swallow him without chewing...</strong>

This I gotta see!

southernhybrid · 11-07-2002, 04:32 AM

Quote:

I think that by now everyone can see that his arguments are without fact.

Primordial Groove · 11-07-2002, 04:53 AM

His rhetoric was very convincing.

Seriously, he is getting slapped on the back right now by others' like him in a congratulatory manner for showing the lies you presented as truth. grrr

I wish he would come here. Perhaps if we prayed
and prayed
and prayed
and...
<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

11-07-2002, 06:14 AM

It's interesting how this man never seems to have questioned anything about his religion. He is unaware of any of the standard objections to the truth of the bible. I am always amazed by the posters who come here and say that xianity is true because the bible says so. How does he even begin to explain the existence of billions of followers of other religions if xianity is so obviously the true one?

Shadowy Man · 11-07-2002, 12:56 PM

His letter is full of fallacies. I like how he says that since atheists haven't founded charitable organizations (an unsupported assertion) that they must be selfish people. So what if Christians founded charitable organizations - some good people happen to be Christians, some bad people happen to be Christians too - like the ones who molest children with no punishment.

11-06-2002, 06:51 PM	#1
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	"Time to Scrutinize the Claims of an Atheist" <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001831" target="_blank">At first I posted my 'interesting problem' in MD; on reflection, I think it should be here. </a> Today, Nov. 6, the Star-Mercury came out again- and the headline for the letters section is the title here. The letter, from a Mr. John Dresser, goes: "Regarding the letter from Mr. John Barnes Jr. who extolled the virtues of atheism and bashed theism, I am not writing to debate him as I'm sure that there are many readers who are more qualified than I am for the task. My goal in writing is threefold: to commend Mr. Bob Tribble for being a consistent witness in his editorials; briefly review some of the statements made by Mr. Barnes while pointing out the flaws in his thinking; and finally to encourage your readers, both those who know their saviour and those who do not. In order to critique Mr. Barnes' letter, we need to set the stage if you will, so those who may not be acquainted with this subject can take part in the discussion.(1) Theism is the belief in or in the existence of, God, a god, or gods, as opposed to atheism. Theism is not a word we use every day.(2) Usually we like to say we are religious, or someone has religion. The word religion is a big umbrella that covers everything from Animalism (3) to Zen. Let's narrow our discussion down to Christianity. (4) Christians are people who have made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (5) We believe that He is Lord- Lord of heaven and earth, and everything between. We could write volumes about Christianity and never define it exactly to everyone's liking. (6) That's why we have many different denominations of Christians. (7) In the first paragraph of Mr. Barnes' letter, he says that God is fictional, without truth. (8) But the historical truth is that God in fact proved His existence when He came in the flesh as the second person of the trinity, Jesus Christ, who was born of the virgin Mary, grew up in Palestine, performed hundreds of miracles, (9) was crucified by Pontius Pilate, was buried, and rose again three days later. (10) These are truths that are attested to by hundreds of witnesses, not only in the Bible, but by historians of that era. (11) In his fourth paragraph, Mr. Barnes says that in America our prisons are filled mostly by people of religion, not free thinkers like himself. Although I cannot produce any scientific survey of the religious preference of our prison population, (12) I would like to point out that in America religious people rarely get sent to prison. (13) If what he says is true, maybe these people were godless when they went to prison, saw the error of their ways and got religion. (14) Mr. Barnes goes on to say that atheists do not inspire zealotry. Zealots were a fanatical Jewish party who revolted against Roman occupation in AD 6-70. The term is commonly used today to describe a person who is filled with or incited by zeal, or enthusiastic. Mr. Barnes sounds like a zealous atheist to me. (15) He also says that atheists do not inspire people to fly planes into buildings. What he didn't say was that atheists build iron curtains, enslave nations, exterminate dissenters, and abolish free speech, just to name a few of their accomplishments. (16) Mr. Barnes then goes on about all the selfish Christians he has met. I don't know who he has in mind, but I wish he would tell us how many hospitals, orphanages, and other charitable organizations atheists have founded. Atheists sound like a pretty selfish bunch to me. Mr. Barnes then invites us to chat with him and other atheists on their web page- I don't even think so. (17) Enough of Mr. Barnes' atheism. I think that by now everyone can see that his arguments are without fact. (18) If this is all new to you and you would like to know the facts about God and His love for you, please call or see one of the many pastors in your community. (19) I would like to close by encouraging every Christian to be a godly influence whenever they can. To sow the seed of God's truth whenever you are able and to be bold in proclaiming the name of Jesus to everyone. Perhaps if Mr. Barnes hears the truth often enough, he might come to know Jesus Christ as his saviour as well. (20) My commentary: (1) Sorry guy, Mr. Tribble won't let his paper become a discussion forum. You can come here to II, though. (2) Well, maybe you don't, but then you aren't a mod on the EoG forum... (3) I am pretty sure he means 'animism'. (4) Seeing as how you know zilch about any of the others... (5) Maybe we've heard all this before? (6) Perhaps that's why Christians have fought all those wars about it? (7) Only because no one has been able to exterminate all the others. (8) Actually it was the third paragraph. (9) Hundreds, huh? Let's see a list. (10) Does anyone else get the feeling this guy's a preacher? (11) Let's see your references, bub. (12) Unlike Mr. Barnes, who could, and did. (13) Snicker, snicker, snicker! (14) So, perhaps we should send all our kids to prison too- that way none of them will turn out to be atheists, or bad people! (15) Well... I am kinda enthusiatic, I guess. (16) (17) CHICKEN!!!! BA-AWCKKK!!! CLUCK CLUCK CLUCK! (18) Liar, liar, pants on fire! (19) Bring money. Hey, you don't think all those pastors are supported by God, do you? (20) Yeah, right- lie to me enough times, and I'll become a true believer. Maybe I should send in a letter every week for the next 20 years, to see if this method works on you? - - Well, that was only slightly amusing. Mr. Dresser would not make too good a troll here, I think, so it's no loss that he won't come. But if I get only one person to join II- as a believer, or as an atheist- I'll consider my time and trouble writing all this well spent. Jobar.

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11-06-2002, 07:02 PM	#2
randomsyllable Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: somewhere in Canada Posts: 188	I like how he wrote that entire pice, yet failed to once factually quote you, or provide countering evidence. Hmmm - it's a good thing he leaves debate to others ;p

11-06-2002, 07:57 PM	#3
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Are you going to respond, Jobar? Tear the moron to pieces.

11-06-2002, 08:10 PM	#4
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	No, I think not, Rufus. I mean, this dolt would get no more than a yawn in RR&P, and QoS would swallow him without chewing- he's simply not worth it. Anyone who can't see that he addressed not one thing I really said, and that most of his letter was just a Sunday School lesson, would not learn anything from my reply. He's boring, and beneath my notice. I only posted his whine here because I said I'd keep you all up to date on what responses I got. If anyone comes up with a better response- I'm not holding my breath- I'll note it here. B)

11-07-2002, 04:53 AM	#8
Primordial Groove Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1,570	His rhetoric was very convincing. Seriously, he is getting slapped on the back right now by others' like him in a congratulatory manner for showing the lies you presented as truth. grrr I wish he would come here. Perhaps if we prayed and prayed and prayed and... <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

11-07-2002, 06:14 AM	#9
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	It's interesting how this man never seems to have questioned anything about his religion. He is unaware of any of the standard objections to the truth of the bible. I am always amazed by the posters who come here and say that xianity is true because the bible says so. How does he even begin to explain the existence of billions of followers of other religions if xianity is so obviously the true one?

11-07-2002, 12:56 PM	#10
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	His letter is full of fallacies. I like how he says that since atheists haven't founded charitable organizations (an unsupported assertion) that they must be selfish people. So what if Christians founded charitable organizations - some good people happen to be Christians, some bad people happen to be Christians too - like the ones who molest children with no punishment.

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