Freethought & Rationalism Archive

never been there · 07-31-2003, 08:12 PM

Baptist Boards had a visit from a drive-by - but not an infidel. Rather, someone who has taken a very very close look at the epistles:

===link to deleted thread===

Good for a laugh or for carrying around on a small cue card as insurance against evangelical encounters.

[edited by never been there - thanks Peter]: It appears that the Baptist Boards moderators have stuffed that thread down the memory hole. Michael111 shouldn't have been posting to a Baptists only forum, fair enough, but it wasn't anything that couldn't have been left locked.

Here's a small excerpt:

Quote:

posted by Michael111
Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ?...Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16

<snip>
(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16

Apparently also in II Corinthians 6:2 Paul "distorts" Isaiah 49:8.

Peter Kirby · 07-31-2003, 08:21 PM

I'm locking this thread to allow the original poster to edit the OP with a link to the correct URL. Then others can comment.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 07-31-2003, 08:55 PM

Apparently the Baptist Board moderator has deleted the post made on Baptist Board about Paul by Michael111. I am opening the thread again. Please use this thread to talk about Paul--perhaps neverbeenthere can summarize the deleted post--if this becomes a discussion about Baptist Board, it will go ~~Elsewhere~~. Thank you!

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 07-31-2003, 09:13 PM

Now that neverbeenthere has excerpted the post, I recognize that Michael111 has also posted on Theology Forums with the same material.

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 07-31-2003, 11:58 PM

While I doubt that I would agree with much on TheologyForum, the quotes from 2 Cor are out of context. As detailed in The Runaway Paul, Paul was imitating stock characters from the Roman theater, varieties of "fools".

(See this prior thread Was Paul ever in Damascus?)

Poor Paul. Modern people just can't give up on the idea that Jesus was a good guy, but with the disasterous history of the Christian church, they think there must be someone to blame for distorting Jesus' message. Paul usually ends up being the villain.

It's time to get beyond this. Jesus is lost in myth. We don't know what his message was, and the cryptic, inconsistant sayings attributed to him are not a sufficient guide to life. We can't expect a savior to come out of the sky and solve all of our problems in any case.

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-01-2003, 12:16 AM

But we can speculate on whether or not Paul was nothing more than a "god maker" and cult faker.

Doctor X · 08-01-2003, 12:20 AM

Toto:

[Attempt at Humor]I had a mentor who stated way . . . way back when he was a graduate student, he taught a class on the NT. At some point a seminary student asked him, "But what about when Jesus says, 'such and such.'"

He was dumbfounded. He could not remember where the passage came from. Well, he figured, better too own up to his ignorance than be caught in a lie. He responded, "I'm sorry, I do not remember where in the New Testament that occurs."

The student replied, "It does not appear in the New Testament!"

"Well, where did you get it from?"

"He told me it last night!"[/Failed Attempt at Humor]

You know it must have been legitimate because there was no intermediary. . . .

--J.D.

never been there · 08-02-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
While I doubt that I would agree with much on TheologyForum, the quotes from 2 Cor are out of context.
<snip>
Poor Paul. Modern people just can't give up on the idea that Jesus was a good guy, but with the disasterous history of the Christian church, they think there must be someone to blame for distorting Jesus' message. Paul usually ends up being the villain.

I'm sure you're right, but I'm not really in a position to comment. I have Christian friends who reject Paul's authority, and not for petty nitpicking "gotcha" verse-bombing reasons. However, it would be interesting (or sadistic fun) to throw a few of those quotes at someone to test how selective their reading of the Bible is.

Toto · 08-02-2003, 10:14 AM

NBT:

How do they reject Paul's authority, and is it just Paul's authority that they reject? Probably they reject a few verses that might have been added later for church discipline - there are verses forbidding women to speak in church, when the rest of the documentary evidence is that Paul worked with women who prayed and prophesied, and probably financed him.

But do they accept Jesus' authority? Do they think that divorce is forbidden, as Jesus said? Have they sold all their possessions and given the proceeds to the poor? Do they obey all of the 613 commandments of the Jewish law?

Your friends are probably just cafeteria Christians who have taken the first step toward rationality by deciding that some parts of the Bible make sense and others don't, but are unwilling to take the next step and admit that the Bible is not a very good source of authority. Throwing random verses at them may not work.

River · 08-02-2003, 10:19 AM

Paul whose very name is derived from Sha'ul / Seoul (underworld) is a very early manifestation of the Anti Christ. For an accurate portrayal of Paul please refer to my thread ( complete with scriptural basis)

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=58449

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07-31-2003, 08:21 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I'm locking this thread to allow the original poster to edit the OP with a link to the correct URL. Then others can comment. best, Peter Kirby

07-31-2003, 08:55 PM	#3
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Apparently the Baptist Board moderator has deleted the post made on Baptist Board about Paul by Michael111. I am opening the thread again. Please use this thread to talk about Paul--perhaps neverbeenthere can summarize the deleted post--if this becomes a discussion about Baptist Board, it will go ~~Elsewhere~~. Thank you! best, Peter Kirby

07-31-2003, 09:13 PM	#4
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Now that neverbeenthere has excerpted the post, I recognize that Michael111 has also posted on Theology Forums with the same material. best, Peter Kirby

07-31-2003, 11:58 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	While I doubt that I would agree with much on TheologyForum, the quotes from 2 Cor are out of context. As detailed in The Runaway Paul, Paul was imitating stock characters from the Roman theater, varieties of "fools". (See this prior thread Was Paul ever in Damascus?) Poor Paul. Modern people just can't give up on the idea that Jesus was a good guy, but with the disasterous history of the Christian church, they think there must be someone to blame for distorting Jesus' message. Paul usually ends up being the villain. It's time to get beyond this. Jesus is lost in myth. We don't know what his message was, and the cryptic, inconsistant sayings attributed to him are not a sufficient guide to life. We can't expect a savior to come out of the sky and solve all of our problems in any case.

08-01-2003, 12:16 AM	#6
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	But we can speculate on whether or not Paul was nothing more than a "god maker" and cult faker.

08-01-2003, 12:20 AM	#7
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Toto: [Attempt at Humor]I had a mentor who stated way . . . way back when he was a graduate student, he taught a class on the NT. At some point a seminary student asked him, "But what about when Jesus says, 'such and such.'" He was dumbfounded. He could not remember where the passage came from. Well, he figured, better too own up to his ignorance than be caught in a lie. He responded, "I'm sorry, I do not remember where in the New Testament that occurs." The student replied, "It does not appear in the New Testament!" "Well, where did you get it from?" "He told me it last night!"[/Failed Attempt at Humor] You know it must have been legitimate because there was no intermediary. . . . --J.D.

08-02-2003, 10:14 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	NBT: How do they reject Paul's authority, and is it just Paul's authority that they reject? Probably they reject a few verses that might have been added later for church discipline - there are verses forbidding women to speak in church, when the rest of the documentary evidence is that Paul worked with women who prayed and prophesied, and probably financed him. But do they accept Jesus' authority? Do they think that divorce is forbidden, as Jesus said? Have they sold all their possessions and given the proceeds to the poor? Do they obey all of the 613 commandments of the Jewish law? Your friends are probably just cafeteria Christians who have taken the first step toward rationality by deciding that some parts of the Bible make sense and others don't, but are unwilling to take the next step and admit that the Bible is not a very good source of authority. Throwing random verses at them may not work.

08-02-2003, 10:19 AM	#10
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Paul whose very name is derived from Sha'ul / Seoul (underworld) is a very early manifestation of the Anti Christ. For an accurate portrayal of Paul please refer to my thread ( complete with scriptural basis) http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=58449

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