Freethought & Rationalism Archive

telemachus · 08-02-2001, 07:33 AM

If you are a Buddhist (of whatever stripe) or Taoist, then i'm interested in your opinion on this question:

How do you cope with reconciling your way of life with the apparently innate and ultimately endless desire of Man to improve himself?

To better explain my question, i'll offer my own dilemma. I am a Taoist and have come close to achieving what the Zen Buddhists call Zazen. However, i am held back from going any further by a restlessness best put into words by Tennyson in his poem "Ulysses". You can read this poem here, particularly lines 22-32 and 70.

This situation is somewhat analogous to that faced by Li Mu Bai in the film "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", if you have seen it.

What i wish to learn, then, is if any of you have experienced a similar dilemma, and, regardless of your answer, what advice you can offer me.

Thank you.

jess · 08-02-2001, 08:32 AM

I don't have an answer for you, but I do like the question.
You have quoted one of my favorite poems---
51 Death closes all: but something ere the end,
52 Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
53 Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods. made not afraid to get old.

I view it, I guess, much like a dinner buffet. We stay and eat, slowly or quickly, until we are full. We get full at different rates, and if you stay at the buffet you get hungry again.
Eventually, you may decide you are satiated, and leave. That may take a long time. And there is no rush.

My advice is not to sweat it. Same as you would give a nine year old who wants to be 20 now.

Not that I am a buddist...

Unsolicited advice. You get what you paid for.

boneyard bill · 08-03-2001, 01:13 AM

I am more a student of Buddhist philosophy than a practitioner so my answer may not be as personal as you would like, but I don't think there's any contradiction here.

Buddhism is about peace of mind not peace for the body. That is unattainable. You practice zazen to help you remain centered in dealing with the vissitudes of life. Look at the martial arts. They originated in Zen monasteries. Look also at the Zen arts of archery and swordsmanship. These are very active pursuits.

The important thing is to get your reward from what you are doing instead doing something in order to get a reward. If you have to clean toilets for a living, then dedicate yourself completely to the task of cleaning toilets.

The important thing is to remain centered and aware in your mind even if your body is beset by turmoil and pain. It is certainly better than the other way round.

telemachus · 08-04-2001, 07:21 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. It's a shame there aren't any Taoists or Buddhists so far who are willing to offer their thoughts.

boneyard bill wrote:

Quote:

The important thing is to remain centered and aware in your mind even if your body is beset by turmoil and pain.

I understand that. My point was and is that i am unable to reach final peace of mind as long as my passion for learning remains. Is there a contradiction here?

Wargarden · 08-04-2001, 09:36 AM

"My point was and is that i am unable to reach final peace of mind as long as my passion for learning remains. Is there a contradiction here? "

Life is an accumulation of experience. From each experience, we grow and learn. As long as we live, we experience, grow, and learn. You need not have a passion for learning to actually learn. You will learn as long as you live. Accept that desire is not required to learn. Remember, elimination of desire is key. good luck.

telemachus · 08-04-2001, 10:37 AM

Wargarden wrote:

Quote:

Accept that desire is not required to learn. Remember, elimination of desire is key. good luck.

I see it now, clear as day. You've no idea how much you've helped me. Thanks alot.

boneyard bill · 08-04-2001, 11:23 AM

So it is intellectual pursuits that concern you, not adventure. That is trickier because it involves the mind.

Buddhism in not anti-intellectual, but it is anti-passion. You should be able to indulge your "passion" for learning so long as you maintain awareness.

If you maintain awareness you should be able to realize that the "self" that is so passionate for learning is not your true nature but a construct from your karma. There isn't you and learning process going on. There is just a learning process that is inseparable from that other process that we call "self."

telemachus · 08-05-2001, 04:56 AM

Yes, it's intellectual pursuits that i am concerned about. I'm a Taoist but i think the same principle applies; i'm trying to understand the Tao and i need to achieve balance. I have done so everywhere except intellectually, where i find i can't sit still, so to speak. Herein lies my problem.

However, i think i realize now what i was missing. I can learn more through wu-wei than otherwise, and hence my striving is counter-productive.

Thank you all for helping me attain this wisdom.

Eudaimonist · 08-06-2001, 05:03 PM

Wargarden wrote: Remember, elimination of desire is key.

I thought it was attachment, not desire, that is supposed to be eliminated.

Wargarden · 08-07-2001, 01:19 PM

"I thought it was attachment, not desire, that is supposed to be eliminated."

I've always understood it to be elimination of desire. And isn't attachment merely a desire or want to hold on? Check out this page. It directly answers this conundrum. http://www.nandawon.demon.co.uk/vihara/intro03.htm

[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Wargarden ]

08-02-2001, 07:33 AM	#1
telemachus Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Far away from IIDB Posts: 218	Are there any Buddhists or Taoists here? If you are a Buddhist (of whatever stripe) or Taoist, then i'm interested in your opinion on this question: How do you cope with reconciling your way of life with the apparently innate and ultimately endless desire of Man to improve himself? To better explain my question, i'll offer my own dilemma. I am a Taoist and have come close to achieving what the Zen Buddhists call Zazen. However, i am held back from going any further by a restlessness best put into words by Tennyson in his poem "Ulysses". You can read this poem here, particularly lines 22-32 and 70. This situation is somewhat analogous to that faced by Li Mu Bai in the film "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", if you have seen it. What i wish to learn, then, is if any of you have experienced a similar dilemma, and, regardless of your answer, what advice you can offer me. Thank you.

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08-02-2001, 08:32 AM	#2
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	I don't have an answer for you, but I do like the question. You have quoted one of my favorite poems--- 51 Death closes all: but something ere the end, 52 Some work of noble note, may yet be done, 53 Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods. made not afraid to get old. I view it, I guess, much like a dinner buffet. We stay and eat, slowly or quickly, until we are full. We get full at different rates, and if you stay at the buffet you get hungry again. Eventually, you may decide you are satiated, and leave. That may take a long time. And there is no rush. My advice is not to sweat it. Same as you would give a nine year old who wants to be 20 now. Not that I am a buddist... Unsolicited advice. You get what you paid for.

08-03-2001, 01:13 AM	#3
boneyard bill Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 15,796	I am more a student of Buddhist philosophy than a practitioner so my answer may not be as personal as you would like, but I don't think there's any contradiction here. Buddhism is about peace of mind not peace for the body. That is unattainable. You practice zazen to help you remain centered in dealing with the vissitudes of life. Look at the martial arts. They originated in Zen monasteries. Look also at the Zen arts of archery and swordsmanship. These are very active pursuits. The important thing is to get your reward from what you are doing instead doing something in order to get a reward. If you have to clean toilets for a living, then dedicate yourself completely to the task of cleaning toilets. The important thing is to remain centered and aware in your mind even if your body is beset by turmoil and pain. It is certainly better than the other way round.

08-04-2001, 09:36 AM	#5
Wargarden Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Earth; Sol Posts: 37	"My point was and is that i am unable to reach final peace of mind as long as my passion for learning remains. Is there a contradiction here? " Life is an accumulation of experience. From each experience, we grow and learn. As long as we live, we experience, grow, and learn. You need not have a passion for learning to actually learn. You will learn as long as you live. Accept that desire is not required to learn. Remember, elimination of desire is key. good luck.

08-04-2001, 11:23 AM	#7
boneyard bill Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 15,796	So it is intellectual pursuits that concern you, not adventure. That is trickier because it involves the mind. Buddhism in not anti-intellectual, but it is anti-passion. You should be able to indulge your "passion" for learning so long as you maintain awareness. If you maintain awareness you should be able to realize that the "self" that is so passionate for learning is not your true nature but a construct from your karma. There isn't you and learning process going on. There is just a learning process that is inseparable from that other process that we call "self."

08-05-2001, 04:56 AM	#8
telemachus Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Far away from IIDB Posts: 218	Yes, it's intellectual pursuits that i am concerned about. I'm a Taoist but i think the same principle applies; i'm trying to understand the Tao and i need to achieve balance. I have done so everywhere except intellectually, where i find i can't sit still, so to speak. Herein lies my problem. However, i think i realize now what i was missing. I can learn more through wu-wei than otherwise, and hence my striving is counter-productive. Thank you all for helping me attain this wisdom.

08-06-2001, 05:03 PM	#9
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Wargarden wrote: Remember, elimination of desire is key. I thought it was attachment, not desire, that is supposed to be eliminated.

08-07-2001, 01:19 PM	#10
Wargarden Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Earth; Sol Posts: 37	"I thought it was attachment, not desire, that is supposed to be eliminated." I've always understood it to be elimination of desire. And isn't attachment merely a desire or want to hold on? Check out this page. It directly answers this conundrum. http://www.nandawon.demon.co.uk/vihara/intro03.htm [ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Wargarden ]

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