Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jimmy Higgins · 01-25-2002, 05:31 AM

I've been in an debate recently and they brought up something that is common with theists. Its the cause of the universe debate. That "science proves that the universe had a cause" and that god exists outside of the universe so he can be the cause without he, himself, being subject to casuality. I then brought this up and have not gotten close to a reply yet.

Can only god exist outside the universe?

I like this angle right now, mainly because it really frustrates the argument of the omnipotence of god. The truthful answer is that we don't know, therefore, creating the doubt of the entire casuality creation issue. If science hasn't been able to prove that nothing can exist beyond the universe, then if god co-inhabits this realm, then perhaps god isn't as godly as they'd like to think.

So I forward the question here. Can only god exist beyond the universe?

jojo-sa · 01-25-2002, 05:48 AM

yes

jojo-sa · 01-25-2002, 05:50 AM

and if He wants He can make you exist with him outside the universe for with God all things are possible.

now aint that just too much for you???

Oolon Colluphid · 01-25-2002, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
and if He wants He can make you exist with him outside the universe for with God all things are possible.

Except making a decent job of the recurrent laryngeal nerve apparently.

Quote:

now aint that just too much for you???

For me to believe without the slightest shred of evidence? You betcha!

TTFN, Oolon

Theophage · 01-25-2002, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
and if He wants He can make you exist with him outside the universe for with God all things are possible.

That's the wonderful thing about imaginary beings: we can give them any ability imaginable (even ones that make no sense!)

Silly people, what does "outside the universe" mean anyway?

Mageth · 01-25-2002, 07:36 AM

with God all things are possible

Can god lie?
Can god sin?
Can god commit suicide?
Can god get high?
Can god change the past?
Can god have children? (woops - never mind, I forgot)
Can god make a square circle?
Can god make 1=2?
Can god fart?
Can god change his mind and decide to let everyone but christians into heaven?
Can god enjoy a porterhouse cooked medium rare and some Merlot at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse?
Can god smoke a pipe?
Can god rob a liquor store?
Can god drive a car?

Scrutinizer · 01-26-2002, 12:50 AM

Can God make this sentence so long even he can't read it?

Seriously though, I don't think there's any way to argue that God couldn't exist "outside" the universe. But it starts from the assumption that there is some spatial dimension that is separate to the universe. How about "God is not confined by space and time"? That seems to be a little less slippery than "God exists outside the universe".

Regards,

- Scrutinizer

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Scrutinizer ]

01-26-2002, 07:12 AM

God cannot exist inside the universe because the universe has no existence for God to be part of. Everything that exists finds its existence in the space we call the universe and it is only in this existence that the essence of God is to be found.

It should be pointed out here that God is mythology specific and that the concept we call God is universal in all mythologies. This now means that God did not create the universe but created heaven opposite to earth inside our own mythology.

No, this does not make God smaller but just your idea of God better.

Amos

abe smith · 01-26-2002, 07:47 AM

What!? after all that, are you then a Pantheist, Amos? You appear to be saying here that "god" & the Universe are identical & co-terminous? Wow. Abe

Jimmy Higgins · 01-29-2002, 11:25 AM

Apparently my question was misunderstood.

Can only god exist outside the universe?

01-25-2002, 05:31 AM	#1
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	The existence of god and creation I've been in an debate recently and they brought up something that is common with theists. Its the cause of the universe debate. That "science proves that the universe had a cause" and that god exists outside of the universe so he can be the cause without he, himself, being subject to casuality. I then brought this up and have not gotten close to a reply yet. Can only god exist outside the universe? I like this angle right now, mainly because it really frustrates the argument of the omnipotence of god. The truthful answer is that we don't know, therefore, creating the doubt of the entire casuality creation issue. If science hasn't been able to prove that nothing can exist beyond the universe, then if god co-inhabits this realm, then perhaps god isn't as godly as they'd like to think. So I forward the question here. Can only god exist beyond the universe?

01-26-2002, 12:50 AM	#7
Scrutinizer Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 245	Can God make this sentence so long even he can't read it? Seriously though, I don't think there's any way to argue that God couldn't exist "outside" the universe. But it starts from the assumption that there is some spatial dimension that is separate to the universe. How about "God is not confined by space and time"? That seems to be a little less slippery than "God exists outside the universe". Regards, - Scrutinizer [ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Scrutinizer ]</p>

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01-25-2002, 05:48 AM	#2
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	yes

01-25-2002, 05:50 AM	#3
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	and if He wants He can make you exist with him outside the universe for with God all things are possible. now aint that just too much for you???

01-25-2002, 07:36 AM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	with God all things are possible Can god lie? Can god sin? Can god commit suicide? Can god get high? Can god change the past? Can god have children? (woops - never mind, I forgot) Can god make a square circle? Can god make 1=2? Can god fart? Can god change his mind and decide to let everyone but christians into heaven? Can god enjoy a porterhouse cooked medium rare and some Merlot at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse? Can god smoke a pipe? Can god rob a liquor store? Can god drive a car?

01-26-2002, 07:12 AM	#8
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	God cannot exist inside the universe because the universe has no existence for God to be part of. Everything that exists finds its existence in the space we call the universe and it is only in this existence that the essence of God is to be found. It should be pointed out here that God is mythology specific and that the concept we call God is universal in all mythologies. This now means that God did not create the universe but created heaven opposite to earth inside our own mythology. No, this does not make God smaller but just your idea of God better. Amos

01-26-2002, 07:47 AM	#9
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	What!? after all that, are you then a Pantheist, Amos? You appear to be saying here that "god" & the Universe are identical & co-terminous? Wow. Abe

01-29-2002, 11:25 AM	#10
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	Apparently my question was misunderstood. Can only god exist outside the universe?

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