Treacle Worshipper

As most of you probably know, we don't have separation of church & state in Britain. However, compared to the US, Christianity has much less influence over the nation as a whole, with many people being simply uninterested in religion.

I dislike that we have Christians sitting in Parliament and making decisions simply because they are (Anglican) Christians. (Apart from anything else, it's exclusive to everyone.)

On the other hand, I much prefer the general atmosphere of Britain to the apparently Christian-soaked life & politics of the US.

I think church & state separation is an ideal, but would it be such a good thing in the UK if it meant the rise of characters like Pat Robertson et al here?

Any thoughts?

TW

enfant terrible

If you are results-oriented, and want something that is better for atheists in the long run, separation is not what you are looking for. Experience has shown that it does nothing for reducing the influence of religion on the society, and may in fact increase it. This is at least true of dominantly protestant societies. Of all developed countries with protestant majority, the one with the longest tradition of separation, and probably strictest legal standards of separation, has by far the most religious population and the strongest influence of religion on public life. Of course I am talking about the USA. On the other hand, European countries that have an official state religion, such as UK or Sweden, are among the least religious societies.

The most likely reason for this is that the people in the modern, democratic world are intuitively distrustful of government and everything that is connected with it. When a religion is entangled with the state, it makes it less credible in a modern person's eyes.

It is somewhat different in catholic countries. If I interpret events correctly, Italians have become less religious in the quarter-century they've lived without an official state religion. Ireland, which remains (I think) the only European country (other than some miniature ones) where Roman Catholicism is the official religion, is also by far the most religious. This may be because catholicism is super-national, and in catholic societies the church is not viewed as the state's equal partner, but rather as an entity that is above the state.

But such immediate practical goals aside, separation is a good thing on principled grounds. It is equally good for a religious and a non-religious individual, as it protects both from being told by a secular authority (with the powers of the purse and the sword) what to believe.

Whether such separation is better achieved through laws or through developing custom and consensus is an open issue. America is too diverse for a consensus on almost anything to develop spontaneously; what works in Sweden is unlikely to work here, and vice versa.

Treacle Worshipper

enfant terrible,

Thank you for your thoughtful response, I really appreciate it.

You've given me more to think about.

TW

lpetrich

So it would have been better to make the Episcopal Church into the Church of America? It's a natural candidate because it is the US branch of the Church of England.

scumble

Religion is kind of in the background in the UK. In the local library there are piles of books about christianity, which shows which religion we're supposed to have, I suppose, but there's no obviously visible anti-abortion movement that I've ever noticed, no one is trying to put the ten commandments everywhere.
I think the English are just more wary and cynical on the whole, unlike a lot of Americans. Or perhaps the religious don't keep waving their beliefs around (not evangelical).
Have we all just got very practical, with no interest religion or philosophy?
I remember there was a kind of weak indoctrination at school for christianity. We used to say the Lord's prayer at assembly. So people come away with a vague belief, which is nothing like the kind of orthodox belief commonplace across the atlantic. My parents are positively atheistic, so none of this had an impact on me, but others do have some vague notion of the old religion, probably because they haven't thought about it much.
I don't think the English are convinced about taking the whole Christian package on the whole. I'm not sure why.

Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by scumble
I remember there was a kind of weak indoctrination at school for christianity. We used to say the Lord's prayer at assembly. So people come away with a vague belief, which is nothing like the kind of orthodox belief commonplace across the atlantic.

Going somewhat off topic, but hey. I have never understood why schools have to have Xn-based assemblies. And I mean never, since I went to school in the first place. I would have thought any self-respecting Xn would campaign against these; they turn generations off religion. They are boring. They are led by staff who may not even be Xn themselves, and who certainly aren't theologically trained. They are guaranteed to produce thousands of apatheists & agnostics. In fact, from an atheist's p-o-v, the establishment couldn't have found a better way of weakening Xnity if they'd tried. (This is one of my opinions that hasn't changed since I left the church )

TW

DMB

For those of you interested in the situation in the UK I would suggest visiting the website of the National Secular Society.

They need all the support thay can get in defending the rights of non-believers and do a wonderful job on a shoestring. They have a weekly electronic newsletter that you can sign up to receive (you don't have to pay or be a member of the NSS). It's really good for keeping in the picture and often shows how bad the Blair Government is in its biased support for religion.

As far as the schools are concerned, legislation is still in place to oblige them to hold religious assemblies. However, you younger people have a much better time of it than I did. In my day RE was wholely about xian indoctrination, which is why I still know chunks of the bible by heart. There was no comparative religion at all and headteachers always seemed to give one a dressing down in xian terms. "Was it really xian to pull Dorothy's hair?" etc.

scumble

Actually, Treacle I remember we had a couple of quite evangelical teachers at my comprehensive, and they could trot out religion on occasion. I remember one say how he prayed for "God to become real to us". I'm glad one of my physics teachers was an atheist, or I might have gone mad

Thanks DMB, I think I'm a bit out of touch with the situation in the UK these days...

Treacle Worshipper

Thanks for the info, DMB.

scumble - Really? Not even our RE teachers were "religious". I didn't know the religious inclinations of any of my teachers, quite possibly because they didn't have any. My English teacher was culturally Jewish, but he didn't practise. Made studying The Merchant of Venice interesting, tho'.

TW

Barcode

I don't ever recall having to say prayer except in primary school which was 17 years ago. Of course, that's part of the problem, having such views foisted upon you at an impressionable age.

One of my R.E teachers in secondary school was *very* religious. After she discovered some tarot cards on my person (I was going through a teenage Pagan phase) she offered me " spiritual counselling " (?????) and the next lesson was a lecture on the dangers of the occult!

After which point I shut up because I was scared she may fail me based upon her own personal bias.

I'm not familiar enough with the school system these days to know how much of a big deal it is ...