Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 03-02-2003, 08:03 PM

Magus55:
Why do atheists always use the argument that since evil exists in the world, God can't exist? That is such a pointless argument.

I disagree.

Why can't you understand the concept of responsbility and the ability to disobey God?

An omnipotent being who allows that to happen is guilty by omission if not guilty by commission. Thus, it would be impossible to disobey an omnipotent being, because any seeming disobedience would be allowed to happen by that being, and thus would be tacitly approved of by that being.

I will now illustrate the concept of guilt by omission. Imagine that you hit someone while driving and you offer the defense that you had done nothing -- you did not turn or change speed. You'd still be found guilty of causing an accident, since you are supposed to avoid hitting people with your car if you can possibly do so.

If we didn't have Free will, you would be a worthless vegetable.

Actually, Jesus Christ had taught removing parts of one's body that cause one to commit sins. This means that if free will causes one to commit sins, then free will is best gotten rid of.

As a kid, you had the choice to obey or disobey your parents - does that mean they raised you as an evil child?

That's because human parents are far from omnipotent.

Jayjay · 03-02-2003, 08:22 PM

Why do theists seem so incapable of imagining hypothetical situations? If God didn't want unwanted pregnancies, he could've easily designed women (or men) with the ability to consciously control their fertility. If God didn't want venereal diseases, he could've just not created them (or do you theists believe diseases evolved all by themselves?). Or if he didn't want people to be obsessive about sex, scrap the sex drive or replace it with something less prone to obsession. The list goes on and on. Didn't God have any options when supposedly creating us? What exactly are his limitations?

On the other hand, we could think about the obsessions and instincts we do not possess... for example, we don't have a biological urge to mark our territory with our urine. Our sex drive doesn't compel women to kill their partners after copulation, so that he might be preserved as food to the offspring. We don't feel an irresistable attraction to colorful flowers. There is an innumerable amount of urges we might have, but we don't, and quite a few urges we do have, even if we might as well not. Some of this makes sense from evolutionary point of view (sex drive, for example), but there's really no point for God to create us with all these defects.

Magus55 · 03-02-2003, 09:12 PM

Why does God have to alter his whole creation just so dumb people don't do stupid things?

If a women ignores her health and sleeps around, only to end up getting pregnant and an STD - thats her own stupid fault - she chose to be irresponsible - God shouldn't have to fix every problem. Again i say - take responsbility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose to do.

winstonjen · 03-02-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Why does God have to alter his whole creation just so dumb people don't do stupid things?

Because god is the stupid, incompetent creator that created these things in the first place? He made both dumb people and stupid things, didn't he?

Quote:

If a women ignores her health and sleeps around, only to end up getting pregnant and an STD - thats her own stupid fault - she chose to be irresponsible - God shouldn't have to fix every problem. Again i say - take responsbility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose to do.

Wouldn't it be easier for your god to not have created STDs to begin with?

lpetrich · 03-02-2003, 09:35 PM

Certainly, winstonjen, why not create Heaven and be done with it?

winstonjen · 03-02-2003, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
Certainly, winstonjen, why not create Heaven and be done with it?

Why not? Simple - the Xian god enjoys seeing people suffer. Somehow, in his/its perverse 'grand plan', part of the 'reward' for the believers is getting to see unbelievers suffer. Praise!

:boohoo:

parkdalian · 03-02-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Why does God have to alter his whole creation just so dumb people don't do stupid things?

And why should we have to alter the whole school system to offer special education, provide ramps to public buildings or
produce braille books? Maybe to makes things a little fairer?

Quote:

If a women ignores her health and sleeps around, only to end up getting pregnant and an STD - thats her own stupid fault - she chose to be irresponsible - God shouldn't have to fix every problem. Again i say - take responsbility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose to do.

I accept responsibility for my actions in exchange for my basic human rights and a social life. I don't blame God for a thing since I don't believe in God. As an atheist and a semi-logical person, I don't expect a mythical figure to do anything for me either.

hezekiah jones · 03-02-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Jayjay
Why do theists seem so incapable of imagining hypothetical situations?

I beg to differ. It seems to be what they're best at.

winstonjen · 03-02-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Originally posted by Jayjay
Why do theists seem so incapable of imagining hypothetical situations?

I beg to differ. It seems to be what they're best at.

It comes with the job. Just like dodging questions. Just the way Catholic priests are probably predisposed to being pedophiles.

hezekiah jones · 03-02-2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Again i say - take responsibility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose to do.

That's the atheist's position, without the irrelevant "god" to either blame or expect to do something.
Simple, isn't it?

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03-02-2003, 08:03 PM	#141
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55: Why do atheists always use the argument that since evil exists in the world, God can't exist? That is such a pointless argument. I disagree. Why can't you understand the concept of responsbility and the ability to disobey God? An omnipotent being who allows that to happen is guilty by omission if not guilty by commission. Thus, it would be impossible to disobey an omnipotent being, because any seeming disobedience would be allowed to happen by that being, and thus would be tacitly approved of by that being. I will now illustrate the concept of guilt by omission. Imagine that you hit someone while driving and you offer the defense that you had done nothing -- you did not turn or change speed. You'd still be found guilty of causing an accident, since you are supposed to avoid hitting people with your car if you can possibly do so. If we didn't have Free will, you would be a worthless vegetable. Actually, Jesus Christ had taught removing parts of one's body that cause one to commit sins. This means that if free will causes one to commit sins, then free will is best gotten rid of. As a kid, you had the choice to obey or disobey your parents - does that mean they raised you as an evil child? That's because human parents are far from omnipotent.

03-02-2003, 08:22 PM	#142
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	Why do theists seem so incapable of imagining hypothetical situations? If God didn't want unwanted pregnancies, he could've easily designed women (or men) with the ability to consciously control their fertility. If God didn't want venereal diseases, he could've just not created them (or do you theists believe diseases evolved all by themselves?). Or if he didn't want people to be obsessive about sex, scrap the sex drive or replace it with something less prone to obsession. The list goes on and on. Didn't God have any options when supposedly creating us? What exactly are his limitations? On the other hand, we could think about the obsessions and instincts we do not possess... for example, we don't have a biological urge to mark our territory with our urine. Our sex drive doesn't compel women to kill their partners after copulation, so that he might be preserved as food to the offspring. We don't feel an irresistable attraction to colorful flowers. There is an innumerable amount of urges we might have, but we don't, and quite a few urges we do have, even if we might as well not. Some of this makes sense from evolutionary point of view (sex drive, for example), but there's really no point for God to create us with all these defects.

03-02-2003, 09:12 PM	#143
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Why does God have to alter his whole creation just so dumb people don't do stupid things? If a women ignores her health and sleeps around, only to end up getting pregnant and an STD - thats her own stupid fault - she chose to be irresponsible - God shouldn't have to fix every problem. Again i say - take responsbility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose to do.

03-02-2003, 09:35 PM	#145
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Certainly, winstonjen, why not create Heaven and be done with it?

03-02-2003, 10:01 PM	#148
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Jayjay Why do theists seem so incapable of imagining hypothetical situations? I beg to differ. It seems to be what they're best at.

03-02-2003, 10:04 PM	#150
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Magus55 Again i say - take responsibility for your own actions and don't blame God and expect him to stop every bad thing you choose* to do.* That's the atheist's position, without the irrelevant "god" to either blame or expect to do something. Simple, isn't it?

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