Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Paradisedreams2 · 02-24-2002, 09:15 AM

Grand nubian,

You might be speaking of

(2Chron.9:21) For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

I'm not sure but this looks like the one you described.

Grand Nubian · 02-24-2002, 10:16 AM

Thanks for the help. That's not the verse. I wish that I could remember the what other events were taking place.

All I remember about this verse is that it's God speaking to the representative of a group of people. For example: God speaking to moses about the hebrews.
And giving instructions that a certain number of men should visit him on a mountain in three years or every three years.

This seems to be my recollection, and some details are off I'm sure the the gist is entact.

Paradisedreams2 · 02-24-2002, 10:29 AM

Grand Nubian

Was it (2Kings 18:10?)

And at the end of three years they took it: [even] in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.

This does say in it 3,6,9 (which is seen in about every three years...

If not I'll continue looking

Buckster · 02-24-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paradisedreams2:
As you have said,"It should mean what it says"... It SAYS it speaks in similitudes and that is EXACTLY what is says and it "means" it.]

Somehow I missd this part. Could you possibly provide me the verse for this explanation? Thanks.

Quote:

How have I concluded to appoligize for that fact?

I didn't mean anything offensive. Just that you and others see it as a meaning that is obscured and discovered through some other understanding, while I see it as meaning whatever it says within the sentence or paragraph itself. The body of works that seeks to explain the "true" meaning of individual sentences while basically ignoring the original text, passages and paragraphs in the Bible (especially when they are unsavory or contradictory statements in some way regarding the nature of the God they're trying to convey) is called "apologetics" that's all. Sorry, I didn't name it.

Quote:

But you are right and we are in agreement "to each his own" not meaning it sarcastically but if anyone wants it take it thats fine, if not no one should make you drink it... This includes me.

We're in agreement there, which is directly related to my problems with the very active proselytizing of Xians, especially those that use a government elected position/podium to do it.

Quote:

The post on the thread adresses a verse taken literally I said it is not "literal" and proved that the sciptures say in themselves that "literal" is not an option.

That's the part my slow brain has somehow missed, if you could just post it once more. I don't recall seeing it stated so plainly in the Bible (proved) that it should be reinterpreted no end, rather than read literally. This is interesting to me, especially considering the many YEC's that insist that it must be a literal reading, thus revealing that to them it hasn't been "proved" either.

Quote:

You asked my to show you from them "how" (through demonstration) to see it differently (as in the similitude it says it speaks) and I did just that with its own verses.

This is true. I was hoping it would become as obvious to me as it has to you through your explanation. Unfortunatly, I was unable to fully follow it through a logical progresson from it's literal sentence structure to your inferred meanings. I do thank you for trying though.

Quote:

Its pointing toward "someone" and the similitudes no matter how diverse can be seen to make sense of the whole "law dynamic" and what Christ came to do in various pictures.

Yes, as you've stated. I'm afraid I just can't seem to make that leap from a description of how an army ripped open the bellies of pregnant women as part of their war-machine effort to an abstract inference to JC several hundred years later.

While you may read it that way, I just don't see that the original writer meant it in any context other than the direct meaning conveyed in the original text, as written. This leads me to believe that the event actually happened: Pregnant women (possibly hundreds or thousands of them) were ripped open, killing them and their unborn children, and that the abominable act was passed off at the time by saying God told them to.

Quote:

It was great speaking with you

You too.

Grand Nubian · 02-24-2002, 10:33 AM

No, that's not it either. You're just zipping through very fast. I'm doing a search on the word three and haven't gotten to kings yet.

I just remembered that I read this verse as the end of a book. It may have been just the end of a chapter too. But not in the middle or beginning. That migh help.

Thanks for your efforts

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]

Grand Nubian · 02-24-2002, 10:38 AM

Ah...I found it.

Quote:

13 "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.
14 "Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.
15 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread; for seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt. "No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
16 "Celebrate the Feast of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field. "Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field.
17 "Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD.
18 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast. "The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning.

Seems I was wrong about a lot of details but ehm...you'd agree that the "gist" was there?

)

Paradisedreams2 · 02-24-2002, 01:55 PM

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Run the word "similitude" AND "Similitude" on this link here <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/" target="_blank">http://www.blueletterbible.org/</a> It will confirm "how" God chooses to speak

Buckster, no offense ever taken, no appologies needed. I was just stating I can't appologize for the way it chooses to show something, I was just explaining how it reads or how its written (in similitude) but I can't appologize for it, you either accept it or not but that doesn't mean theres doom or gloom awaiting anyone its your choice to accept its terms, fundamentalists don't even accept its terms, and the obvious error in accepting it literally is readily seen even in an athiest. In other words, when you "buckster" see the obvious error and question the truth on the bases of "literal interpretation" and say, "This makes no sense whatsoever" you are RIGHT... Nothing inside you can agree with it. So you bear witness inside yourself that literal infants being ripped out and so forth attributed to a "so called good God" is not even worth the paper its written on. In that sense You are seeing truth but not realizing it. You poke fun at it because its how others have handled the scriptures and rightly so... YOU NOT them are correct, seeing the stupidity in it is more then half the battle, rather then stop there (but you can if you like) is see how God speaks and find out what on earth He wants to show through these various strange stories.

Have I tried proselytizing you? I'm sorry if it sounded that way but I don't want to do that at all. I respect where you are and who you are. I certainly don't like carrying around a moral beating stick because I only believe it is God who works in someone to bring about what pleases Him and uses this whether the person is see by other as either "good" or "bad" both are equally beneficial. One you ask great questions, you challenge, you provoke thought. I on the other hand NEED this to grow (thank you for your time) but I am a human being and I do sometimes take things personally and am growing as a person to understand someone elses side... no pretenses here just want honest thought provoking conversation and to keep my humanity as well as accept yours

Don't much like "politics" myself.

This is what I'm confused on myself Buckster, you said, "I'm afraid I just can't seem to make that leap from a description of how an army ripped open the bellies of pregnant women as part of their war-machine effort to an abstract inference to JC several hundred years later.
While you may read it that way, I just don't see that the original writer meant it in any context other than the direct meaning conveyed in the original text, as written. This leads me to believe that the event actually happened: Pregnant women (possibly hundreds or thousands of them) were ripped open, killing them and their unborn children, and that the abominable act was passed off at the time by saying God told them to."
Now after stating you cannot see this because you can't "see" the Author meant it in any other way we have to come back to one of many verses... One of which is the often repeated one here...

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and USED SIMILITUDES, BY THE MINISTRY OF THE PROPHETS.

What you read in the Law and the prophets are thus told to us in how they speak. (as clearly explained here and elsewhere please run the words "similitude" AND "similitudes" through the search).

In other words it would say... "I told them the very things that happened exactly how they happened and I said so thats why"? See?

I have found that I thought I was nuts at first... why was no one else seeing what I was seeing, I blamed myself and thought I should go to church and hear from them. The more I listened the more I was confused, every method was undertaken to "understand" I even walked away from it. But I ran into ONE person who followed it through and found the dots all connected. I found in reading the scriptures alone (no one teaching you... actually a promise in there stating no one should) I started seeing "paterns" I couldn't put my finger on it but I have never read it "in context" and good thing because God uses the same langauge over and over again repeating and adding to the words that seem to mystify you. Your looking at them knowing theres got to be more then what your seeing but your not quite getting it, nor do you know what direction your taking with it. Your heart is just inclined to follow its leading.

Example... Goats and sheep... the picture of this is seen in the song of songs, goats are like "hairs" and sheep up from the washing etc... WEIRD!!!! What the heck? The picture for both of these is seen on a FACE. You hear Christ speak about the very "hairs" on your head are numbered... ofcourse thinking something sentimental like God knows all about me (first thought) You then hear "we as sheep have gone astray". The sheep are seen as the "wicked" you see the sheep in the one picture coming up from the "washing". The hairs on a Nazarites head are not to be shorn till his separation. You find various words with clues EVERYWHERE... Its the greatest puzzle on earth! The sheep and goats are separated on and on and on each peice of this most incredible puzzle starts picking up speed and lands you right at that cross. Its hard not to continually link these things they grow into the most enormous picture and the plain pursuit is the best thing that has happened to me.

But your not talking to a christian here who goes to "church" pays tithes (old covenant anyway), I haven't been to a church in over 12 years and its the best damn place NOT to be. The best teacher on earth is Christ and He is already in you whether you believe it OR NOT...

Your just talking to a chick who smokes cigarettes drinks margaritas, and thinks this book is incredible and trusts that "dynamic" hand within to get me where I'm going by following my heart (where He resides)... No rules, no attendence, no moral code, no teachers, preachers, or a doctrine of hell. That sounds just great to me and not only works for me I prefer it.

So no hard feelings whatsoever I'm kool with you being who and what you are, I'm glad for our conversation because I didn't know what those verses meant till I looked at them as I would normally do in the Light of who they speak of. A big ass thank you from me... I'm sure I'm bump into you on other threads so lets not say "goodbye" too long lol!

A sincere pleasure meeting you

Paradisedreams2 · 02-24-2002, 02:03 PM

Grand Nubium,
I'm glad you found that verse! Because I know what its like to irk you and your heart can't rest till you find it lol! Hope theres something good in there for you... there always is!

Grand Nubian · 02-24-2002, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the help!Oh, I found it in the book of exodus 23

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]

Buckster · 02-24-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paradisedreams2:
Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and USED SIMILITUDES, BY THE MINISTRY OF THE PROPHETS.

I thought this was probably the reference, but wanted to be sure.

I notice that it says he has also spoken in that manner (similitudes) but not that he always does, and I think that may be the sticking point. How are we to determine when it is a similitude and when it is not?

The fellow who's web site you reffered to in another thread (who then joined in) takes everything as a similitude, which would seem (to me) to be taking it farther than the verse in Hosea really states.

As for proselytizing, you're not too bad and I take no offense. You can't help telling me that Jesus is in me, whether I know it or not, and the truth is in the bible and stuff like that - no big deal. Of course, you realize that I don't believe a word of it, but I don't take offense to it when you say it. I don't get too goofy about that sort of thing unless our elected or appointed government officials do it (which is far too often IMHO).

(Trying to get back to the subject

) I'm still a little muddy on the issue of whether you believe that the writer that made the original statements in the OT concerning ripping open pregnant women meant that it had happened or not.

While I understand that you see deeper meaning in it (even though I can't), do you also see it as a historical event, or not?

I also understand that you (like I) don't buy into it being condoned by any sort of "loving" god, even if it was attributed to a god's direction per the writer. I tend to think they used the, "god told me to tell you all that we need to (insert terrible thing here)" excuse to get people to do what they wanted - no actual god involved.

That aspect doesn't really matter to me either. It's enough that they tried to put it on a god's shoulders - the same god that the rest of the book is based on - to tell me that the whole thing is just a tool to control the people with a big, scary, invisible tool they called "god".

But, to the point, do you think pregnant women were ripped open per the text that says they were?

Regardless of whether it is also a similitude or not, did the event take place?

I'm not trying to push any buttons here. Just having a bit of conversation.

02-24-2002, 10:33 AM	#55
Grand Nubian Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: mich Posts: 33	No, that's not it either. You're just zipping through very fast. I'm doing a search on the word three and haven't gotten to kings yet. I just remembered that I read this verse as the end of a book. It may have been just the end of a chapter too. But not in the middle or beginning. That migh help. Thanks for your efforts [ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]</p>

02-24-2002, 02:16 PM	#59
Grand Nubian Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: mich Posts: 33	Thanks for the help!Oh, I found it in the book of exodus 23 [ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Grand Nubian ]</p>

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02-24-2002, 09:15 AM	#51
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Grand nubian, You might be speaking of (2Chron.9:21) For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks. I'm not sure but this looks like the one you described.

02-24-2002, 10:16 AM	#52
Grand Nubian Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: mich Posts: 33	Thanks for the help. That's not the verse. I wish that I could remember the what other events were taking place. All I remember about this verse is that it's God speaking to the representative of a group of people. For example: God speaking to moses about the hebrews. And giving instructions that a certain number of men should visit him on a mountain in three years or every three years. This seems to be my recollection, and some details are off I'm sure the the gist is entact.

02-24-2002, 10:29 AM	#53
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Grand Nubian Was it (2Kings 18:10?) And at the end of three years they took it: [even] in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken. This does say in it 3,6,9 (which is seen in about every three years... If not I'll continue looking

02-24-2002, 01:55 PM	#57
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. Run the word "similitude" AND "Similitude" on this link here <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/" target="_blank">http://www.blueletterbible.org/</a> It will confirm "how" God chooses to speak Buckster, no offense ever taken, no appologies needed. I was just stating I can't appologize for the way it chooses to show something, I was just explaining how it reads or how its written (in similitude) but I can't appologize for it, you either accept it or not but that doesn't mean theres doom or gloom awaiting anyone its your choice to accept its terms, fundamentalists don't even accept its terms, and the obvious error in accepting it literally is readily seen even in an athiest. In other words, when you "buckster" see the obvious error and question the truth on the bases of "literal interpretation" and say, "This makes no sense whatsoever" you are RIGHT... Nothing inside you can agree with it. So you bear witness inside yourself that literal infants being ripped out and so forth attributed to a "so called good God" is not even worth the paper its written on. In that sense You are seeing truth but not realizing it. You poke fun at it because its how others have handled the scriptures and rightly so... YOU NOT them are correct, seeing the stupidity in it is more then half the battle, rather then stop there (but you can if you like) is see how God speaks and find out what on earth He wants to show through these various strange stories. Have I tried proselytizing you? I'm sorry if it sounded that way but I don't want to do that at all. I respect where you are and who you are. I certainly don't like carrying around a moral beating stick because I only believe it is God who works in someone to bring about what pleases Him and uses this whether the person is see by other as either "good" or "bad" both are equally beneficial. One you ask great questions, you challenge, you provoke thought. I on the other hand NEED this to grow (thank you for your time) but I am a human being and I do sometimes take things personally and am growing as a person to understand someone elses side... no pretenses here just want honest thought provoking conversation and to keep my humanity as well as accept yours Don't much like "politics" myself. This is what I'm confused on myself Buckster, you said, "I'm afraid I just can't seem to make that leap from a description of how an army ripped open the bellies of pregnant women as part of their war-machine effort to an abstract inference to JC several hundred years later. While you may read it that way, I just don't see that the original writer meant it in any context other than the direct meaning conveyed in the original text, as written. This leads me to believe that the event actually happened: Pregnant women (possibly hundreds or thousands of them) were ripped open, killing them and their unborn children, and that the abominable act was passed off at the time by saying God told them to." Now after stating you cannot see this because you can't "see" the Author meant it in any other way we have to come back to one of many verses... One of which is the often repeated one here... Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and USED SIMILITUDES, BY THE MINISTRY OF THE PROPHETS. What you read in the Law and the prophets are thus told to us in how they speak. (as clearly explained here and elsewhere please run the words "similitude" AND "similitudes" through the search). In other words it would say... "I told them the very things that happened exactly how they happened and I said so thats why"? See? I have found that I thought I was nuts at first... why was no one else seeing what I was seeing, I blamed myself and thought I should go to church and hear from them. The more I listened the more I was confused, every method was undertaken to "understand" I even walked away from it. But I ran into ONE person who followed it through and found the dots all connected. I found in reading the scriptures alone (no one teaching you... actually a promise in there stating no one should) I started seeing "paterns" I couldn't put my finger on it but I have never read it "in context" and good thing because God uses the same langauge over and over again repeating and adding to the words that seem to mystify you. Your looking at them knowing theres got to be more then what your seeing but your not quite getting it, nor do you know what direction your taking with it. Your heart is just inclined to follow its leading. Example... Goats and sheep... the picture of this is seen in the song of songs, goats are like "hairs" and sheep up from the washing etc... WEIRD!!!! What the heck? The picture for both of these is seen on a FACE. You hear Christ speak about the very "hairs" on your head are numbered... ofcourse thinking something sentimental like God knows all about me (first thought) You then hear "we as sheep have gone astray". The sheep are seen as the "wicked" you see the sheep in the one picture coming up from the "washing". The hairs on a Nazarites head are not to be shorn till his separation. You find various words with clues EVERYWHERE... Its the greatest puzzle on earth! The sheep and goats are separated on and on and on each peice of this most incredible puzzle starts picking up speed and lands you right at that cross. Its hard not to continually link these things they grow into the most enormous picture and the plain pursuit is the best thing that has happened to me. But your not talking to a christian here who goes to "church" pays tithes (old covenant anyway), I haven't been to a church in over 12 years and its the best damn place NOT to be. The best teacher on earth is Christ and He is already in you whether you believe it OR NOT... Your just talking to a chick who smokes cigarettes drinks margaritas, and thinks this book is incredible and trusts that "dynamic" hand within to get me where I'm going by following my heart (where He resides)... No rules, no attendence, no moral code, no teachers, preachers, or a doctrine of hell. That sounds just great to me and not only works for me I prefer it. So no hard feelings whatsoever I'm kool with you being who and what you are, I'm glad for our conversation because I didn't know what those verses meant till I looked at them as I would normally do in the Light of who they speak of. A big ass thank you from me... I'm sure I'm bump into you on other threads so lets not say "goodbye" too long lol! A sincere pleasure meeting you

02-24-2002, 02:03 PM	#58
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Grand Nubium, I'm glad you found that verse! Because I know what its like to irk you and your heart can't rest till you find it lol! Hope theres something good in there for you... there always is!

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