wildernesse

Why do you care whether what people believe makes sense or not? Are you really upset about what goes on in other people's minds?

They who?

Real as compared to religion. Hmmm. Religions are as real as science, as they are just methods of connecting humans to whatever supernatural they are aimed at. Those methods are real. Religion is fabricated by people, yes, but so is the scientific method.

As for "there's no god", well, I tend to think that you don't have any absolute proof of this and that this is just your opinion.

[snip]

Tired of having to put up with this foolishness--just like I'm tired of trying to convince people that yellow is not their favorite color! My word, those people are irritating. Yellow is hideous, and their preference isn't the slightest bit reasonable.

Why is it exasperating for people to think differently than you? Are you irritated at their beliefs, or that they won't agree with you?

--tibac

architect

"Dammit, I want to see 'Religion: Godly truth or total crap' on my TV"

I'd like to see that show too, but I think PBS would give it a classier title.

I think that americans are moving away from religion in general. I have seen a polarization of religion. As people move away from religion in general, there is a small backlash that moves the other way (fundies).

I think the best way to combat superstitious beliefs is to educate people. The more education people have, the less religious they seem to be (based on personal observation). This brings up an interesting possible situation: could there be a class of educated non-believers and an underclass of uneducated believers?Fascinating.

brighid

I have an idea, one that isn't likely to get implemented but one that I think (if implemented) would drastically reduce the number of superstitious people in the world, and hopefully curb fundamentalism.

If there could be any universal, moral mandate I would like it to be that decisions about religion could not be imposed upon anyone and one could not make religious decisions until one is an adult. Prior to this time each person would be objectively educated about all world religions, their origins, how they compare to one another, etc. At the same time each individual would be taught adequate criticial thinking and deductive reasoning skills, as well as strong education in the arts and sciences. (I feel everyone should be provided a top-notch education free of charge, as I feel this would eliminate many of the world's problems... but I digress.)

People should be allowed freedom of thought, conscience, worship, speech, etc. and I would go so far as to say that no system (atheism, agnosticism, theism, etc.) should be given any preference and teaching should remain neutral (so as not to bias people one way or the other.)

If, after all the proper education in discerning myth from fact, a complete education about all relevant religions and philosophies, etc. an adult freely chooses to participate in and/or believe in a deity I think they should be left to do so and without prejudice.

I think the problems we see - such as the hatred, violence, malice, desire to supress the freedoms of minorities faiths/peoples stems from something more then just a religious belief (even if some are fueled by a god belief.) If society could curb, or eliminate the reasons why some people (religious or otherwise) use prejudice, etc. against other groups I think many of our problems with religion per say could be eliminated.

We tend to have less problems with Pagans and Wiccans, despite their superstitions and god beliefs, because they do not proselytize and pretty much keep to themselves. If religious belief were a private matter, one to be expressed in specific social groups and in the privacy of one's home, without preference given in the public sphere I think things would be better, more peaceful and co-existance would be easier.

B

Rusting Car Bumper

This in fact is false. Religion is not entirely superstition by any stretch.

DC

Godless Wonder

Care to elaborate? From dictionary.com:

su·per·sti·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-stshn)
n.

1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
2.
1. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
2. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
3. Idolatry.

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


They seem to be the same thing to me, no stretching required. Religion is just used to describe superstitions which are well organized and widely held.

never been there

If you want to get rid of religion, establish the church. Make the Baptist church the official religion of the USA (with the RCs as official minority) but otherwise maintain freedom of individual belief. That seems to have taken care of things in Europe, and would have in Canada too, if we didn't have those theistic emanations coming over the border.

Virgil Tibbs

Hi, I'd like to respond to a few of these myself:

Good behavior does not require brainwashing or religion. Simply put, how could one expect to be treated well if one goes around treating others poorly? Being good does not require supernatural justification, while belief in god does (since god is by any definition I've seen so far is "supernatural").

More importantly since good behavior is a code of conduct, the only requirement for it to exist is for someone to propose and/or follow it. God is not a code of conduct, he is a (meta-)physical being who does things (send his son to earth, judge souls, etc.) and therefore requires more evidence for his existence than the idea that he might exist (same as Zeus would require evidence he exists for me to believe in him).

I'd like to take a stab at this too. For one thing, I'd like to be able to talk about my beliefs without the concern that people will think I'm immoral because of them. I'll grant you that has more to do with religious intolerance than religion itself, however several religions such as xianity have religious intolerance built into them, and only those who construct their own religions piece-meal can ignore the parts of holy books they do not like.

I will direct this charge at religion: it encourages people to believe that because they want something to be true, it must be true. Anyone who thinks this way is just setting himself/herself up to be hurt (and can even use this justification hurt others), IMO.

People who believe things that don't make sense often use those things as justification for their actions, actions which might effect me. I don't particularly like the idea of my existence being affected by supernaturalists who, as far as I am concerned, cannot seperate fact from fiction.

I think "real" here is the sense that science relies on observations of the world around us, while religion relies on speculation about the world around us.

If this speculation occured naturally to all people I might believe there was something to it, but there are many contradictory religions out there, all of which use the same methodology to reach their conclusions, and yet they don't even agree whether a god exists (as many religions have multiple or zero deities).

It is just your opinion that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist. You have no proof.

You are forgetting that the burden of proof is on you as the person who claims god exists. I myself do not claim god can't exist, just that he has no more evidence going for him than the IPU and I am therefore comfortable with dismissing him.

Keep in mind the fact that "lots of people believe in god" does not constitute proof, because it is belief without evidence. At one time, lots of people believed in Zeus, and that does not convince me Zeus exists.

Furthermore, all successful supernatural theories have been unfalsifable, that is it is impossible to prove them false. For example, when the story of genesis was proven false it was simply abandoned as allegorical rather than factual.

Theist beliefs have large effects on the lives (and deaths) of everyone on this planet. The good they do could just as easily come with secular justification (I don't need to believe in god to help my neighbor) while the evil they do can not (To actually kill in the name of god, I have to believe in god). No one has ever been killed for having the wrong favorite color, that I know of.

Tibbs

trekbette

How to get rid of religion?

Simple. Get rid of all people. That would also cure war and hunger.

DOWN WITH THE HUMANS.

Oh wait, I'm human.

Damn.

Guess we're stuck. :banghead:

Virgil Tibbs

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I'll add that the lack of god belief has one large advantage over god belief: it does not require indoctrination to accomplish. That makes it easier to spread. OTOH it does not give any quick-fix answers to questions such as "why does the universe exist?" which is a drawback as far as its spread is concerned.

Look on the bright side though: that a situation looks hopeless to you now does not necessarily make it so. Picture being someone against racism a few centuries ago. That would look hopeless, yet today racism is at least declining.

However, the bad news about the current situation with religion is that with religion so very prevalent in society, indoctrination can take place in all parts of life. Just the fact that so many people take god so seriously gives it a strong credence it would lack when examined fairly. So the advantage of non-belief is partially nullified.

One way to help deal with this is, if arguing about the existence of god, to not only show the reasons why god is unlikely to exist, but to show the reasons why the existence of god is not needed for life to have meaning. This is actually the tricky part, because meaning in life is so very emotional that people will strongly resist an appeal to reason even indirectly related to it.

I like to point out the following: that there are only two things that a religious "meaning of life" has going for it that a secular one cannot:

- authoritarian appeals to a deity
- bribery of an afterlife for being "good"

Just today I was talking on the phone with an old friend who is agnostic, and he told me that he felt if life "ended" it was meaningless. I pointed out to him that if a finite existence was "meaningless", how could more of the same have meaning? Why would an infinite number of years have meaning if each individual year had none by itself?

Tibbs

Mr. Neutron

Well, I might know somebody who knows somebody else who has a friend who could do this thing you're talkin' about...but it don't come cheap, capiche?