Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Michigan Heretic · 10-29-2002, 05:45 PM

From American Atheist News

ATHEIST SCOUT SAYS HE'LL FIGHT DECISION TO EXPEL HIM FROM BSA

He's 19-years old, has 37 merit badges, and has served as a three-time
senior patrol leader in the Boy Scouts of America. He is also an
assistant Scoutmaster and field leader involved in the group's Search
and Rescue program. His mom says that he doesn't smoke or take
illegal drugs, and that her son expressed no interest in having a
drink when he turns 21. And according to the Seattle Times, he has
contributed over 1,000 hours of community service.

But the Chief Seattle Council of BSA says that it intends to expel
Darrell Lambert because he does not believe in a deity. News reports
say that the group, which has already come under attack for
discriminating against gays, is giving Lambert a week to decide "in
his heart" if he really and truly happens to be an Atheist.

"No way," Lambert told the Times. "It would be like me asking them to
change their belief. It's not going to happen."

The case is just the latest in a growing controversy over the official
policy of the Boy Scouts to insist that all members and leaders
believe in a god.

A posting from "Scouting For All," a national organization seeking to
make the BSA more inclusive by admitting homosexuals and nonbelievers,
said that Lambert's Atheism was discussed at an October 12 training
session for Scout Masters. The District Chairman, Glen Schmidt,
reportedly said, "I asked scouts during the training if they believe
in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to
become good citizens they must believe in god."

Schmidt then continued, "Anyone that doesn't believe in god
isn't a good citizen." He delivered a homily stating that if an
Atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, they would
"pick it up (and) plunder the money."

Another scout leader identified as Dave Jones then reportedly told
Lambert's mother, "If you have any other boys in the scouts that don't
believe in god they need to be kicked out..."

It is not the first time that families who profess Atheism, or have a
nonbeliever son have encountered difficulties with the Boy Scouts. "I
don't see where religious beliefs come into play when we teach them to
camp," remarked one parent at the Seattle meeting.

Another, referring to Mr. Lambert cited the Eagle Scout's long and
impressive list of accomplishments within the organization and service
to the community.

"He's willing to take care of our boys, our land, he goes and rescues
our people. What more could the Boy Scouts want?"

Others said that whatever the virtues of kicking Lambert out of the
group, the Seattle troop risked running afoul of the national
organization and possibly losing its charter to operate.

In 1997, Atheist parent Rob Sherman went to court as a plaintiff with
his son, Ricky challenging the constitutionality of his local Illinois
police department sponsoring a Boy Scouts Explorer post. The suit
charged that by allowing the scouts to requiring a religious litmus
test for membership, a government agency was sponsoring
discrimination, and violating the separation of church and state.

The following year, the California State Supreme Court ruled in the
case of twins Michael and Terry Randall who had joined the Cub Scouts
at age 7. They were originally permitted to omit a religious oath,
but later were rejected from participating in another Scouting
program. They won their Eagle Scout badges years later as the case
wound its way through the legal system, but the court declared that the
BSA
was immune to anti-discrimination statutes.

In June, 2000 the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its finding in the
case of BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA v. DALE. The 5-4 decision upheld the
right of the scouts to require prospective leaders to swear to a
"Declaration of Religious Principles." Although the case involved a
BSA leader, some say that questions remain whether the finding would
still apply to members of the group.

One crucial issue has been whether groups like the Boy Scouts are
private organizations which may have wide latitude in establishing
membership criteria, or instead fall under the mantle of "public
accommodations" which make them subject to civil rights laws. Critics
point out that the BSA often receives sponsorship along with material
and even financial aid from local and state governments. The
President of the United States is designated as the "honorary
chairman" of the organization, and various governmental agencies
including the Department of Defense have made extensive resource
available to the BSA.

That, say the critics, amounts to government-sponsored discrimination.

Communities throughout the country have weighed in on the controversy,
and
so has congress.

Nearly 100 municipalities have severed their official ties with the
Boy Scouts, and in some cases even cut direct funding. Lawmakers have
feuded over the issue as well, pushing competing bills on Capitol
Hill. Some, like the "Scouts Honor Act," would have prohibited any
entity receiving federal funds "to compel the Boy Scouts of America to
employ, enroll, or accept as a member or volunteer an individual whose
sexual orientation, sexual behavior, religious beliefs, or absence of
religious beliefs is determined by the Boy Scouts of America to be
inconsistent with the organization's policies, programs, morals or
mission."

Other efforts have attempted to pull the Boy Scouts special
Congressional Charter.

The national Boy Scouts of America organization has remained
uncompromising in its attitude toward gay and Atheist youth. In
February of this year, the BSA board adopted a resolution deeming
homosexuals and nonbelievers as unfit and morally unacceptable role
models for youth. The move came as local Scout Councils were
demanding change within the organization, including greater autonomy
for state and regional groups.

A statement from the BSA declared that "an avowed homosexual cannot
serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the
Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local
option choices. In affirming its existing standards of leadership,
the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those
choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an
obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's
92-year history."

Scott Cozza, the president of the Scouting For All group which seeks
to bring tolerance into the ranks of the BSA said, "It is ironic that
the BSA core value of respecting diversity is not practiced within the
organization. And it's a shame that the BSA National Office is
turning a deaf ear to its members."

Cozza's group is also condemning the threats to dismiss Darrel
Lambert.

"I think it's horrible that the Boy Scouts of America would kick out
Lambert. He is more of an Eagle Scout than many Eagle Scouts who
believe in god. believing in god is not a measure of the quality of a
person."

Cozza noted that the two murderers of Matthew Shepard, a gay youth,
were an Eagle Scout and Mormon.

"The character of a person is seen by how a person lives his life,"
said Cozza. "When will the Boy Scouts of America ever learn that
their policy of discrimination is a violation of their own scout oath
and law, and hurts kids?"

By the way...my sister has her kids in "Sprial Scouts" which is scouting for Pagans and other minority beliefs.

crazyfingers · 10-29-2002, 06:06 PM

Thanks for posting that. I hope some good comes from the fight. I sent a letter to the Boston Globe about their discrimination against atheists a few weeks ago. They didn't print it - at least yet.

crazyfingers · 10-29-2002, 06:11 PM

Have you got a link to that. It's not immediately obvious from the AA website.

crazyfingers · 10-29-2002, 06:22 PM

Here is a different version of the story.

<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134564883_boyscout29m.html" target="_blank">Seattle Times</a>

GaryP · 10-29-2002, 07:12 PM

Thanks for the article.

I sent it to a local reporter who has done articles concerning gays and scouting but refused to even respond to me when I brought up Atheists' rights.

Shake · 10-30-2002, 06:15 AM

Darrell Lambert, <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> We need more folks like you to show the world the insanity of believing that atheists can't be good, moral people who want to help others.

I was a Scout for a good many years. Lost interest before obtaining Eagle, but I never felt any religious pressure from BSA. Sure, they say, "A Scout is reverent." But why can't that mean respectful and tolerant? This issue is going to make the Scouts look bad, and that saddens me, because I believe it's otherwise a great organization! I was only just beginning to really question my beliefs when I left the Scouts, so there was never an issue of non-belief with me. My advice to the Scouts would be to take the hit on this and update their ideologies to be more tolerant of those with different belief systems. Yeah, they'll lose some face for having fought it, but in the end it'll help their image. I mean this Darrell kid sounds like the kind of kid you'd want your daughter dating. Well, we'll see what happens.

galiel · 10-30-2002, 06:21 AM

Bravo. I hope that this case may finally blow the whole thing open. Most people are now aware that the BS discriminates against gays, but the anti-atheist aspect never gets much coverage in the media, and most people don't know about the loyalty oath at all.

crazyfingers · 10-30-2002, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:
the anti-atheist aspect never gets much coverage in the media, and most people don't know about the loyalty oath at all.

Yes, their religious discrimination almost never gets a mention.

Between excluding gays and excluding nontheists, they are excluding as much as 20% of the population.

Alludium Fozdex · 10-30-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

The District Chairman, Glen Schmidt, reportedly said, "I asked scouts during the training if they believe in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to become good citizens they must believe in god."

Schmidt then continued, "Anyone that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen." He delivered a homily stating that if an Atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, they would "pick it up (and) plunder the money."

Oooo, I'd love to see this putz take a stab at proving those assertions... <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Gerald ]</p>

mibby529 · 10-30-2002, 08:46 AM

The Scouts are known for this. They've effectively made racial and religious discrimination 100% legal when they got that right of "free association" so they could fire the gay Scoutmaster; American law is one of logical extremes.

10-29-2002, 05:45 PM	#1
Michigan Heretic Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 8	Boy Scouts/Atheism From American Atheist News ATHEIST SCOUT SAYS HE'LL FIGHT DECISION TO EXPEL HIM FROM BSA He's 19-years old, has 37 merit badges, and has served as a three-time senior patrol leader in the Boy Scouts of America. He is also an assistant Scoutmaster and field leader involved in the group's Search and Rescue program. His mom says that he doesn't smoke or take illegal drugs, and that her son expressed no interest in having a drink when he turns 21. And according to the Seattle Times, he has contributed over 1,000 hours of community service. But the Chief Seattle Council of BSA says that it intends to expel Darrell Lambert because he does not believe in a deity. News reports say that the group, which has already come under attack for discriminating against gays, is giving Lambert a week to decide "in his heart" if he really and truly happens to be an Atheist. "No way," Lambert told the Times. "It would be like me asking them to change their belief. It's not going to happen." The case is just the latest in a growing controversy over the official policy of the Boy Scouts to insist that all members and leaders believe in a god. A posting from "Scouting For All," a national organization seeking to make the BSA more inclusive by admitting homosexuals and nonbelievers, said that Lambert's Atheism was discussed at an October 12 training session for Scout Masters. The District Chairman, Glen Schmidt, reportedly said, "I asked scouts during the training if they believe in god and if they don't I boot them out. In order for scouts to become good citizens they must believe in god." Schmidt then continued, "Anyone that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen." He delivered a homily stating that if an Atheist happened to find a wallet laying on the ground, they would "pick it up (and) plunder the money." Another scout leader identified as Dave Jones then reportedly told Lambert's mother, "If you have any other boys in the scouts that don't believe in god they need to be kicked out..." It is not the first time that families who profess Atheism, or have a nonbeliever son have encountered difficulties with the Boy Scouts. "I don't see where religious beliefs come into play when we teach them to camp," remarked one parent at the Seattle meeting. Another, referring to Mr. Lambert cited the Eagle Scout's long and impressive list of accomplishments within the organization and service to the community. "He's willing to take care of our boys, our land, he goes and rescues our people. What more could the Boy Scouts want?" Others said that whatever the virtues of kicking Lambert out of the group, the Seattle troop risked running afoul of the national organization and possibly losing its charter to operate. In 1997, Atheist parent Rob Sherman went to court as a plaintiff with his son, Ricky challenging the constitutionality of his local Illinois police department sponsoring a Boy Scouts Explorer post. The suit charged that by allowing the scouts to requiring a religious litmus test for membership, a government agency was sponsoring discrimination, and violating the separation of church and state. The following year, the California State Supreme Court ruled in the case of twins Michael and Terry Randall who had joined the Cub Scouts at age 7. They were originally permitted to omit a religious oath, but later were rejected from participating in another Scouting program. They won their Eagle Scout badges years later as the case wound its way through the legal system, but the court declared that the BSA was immune to anti-discrimination statutes. In June, 2000 the U.S. Supreme Court handed down its finding in the case of BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA v. DALE. The 5-4 decision upheld the right of the scouts to require prospective leaders to swear to a "Declaration of Religious Principles." Although the case involved a BSA leader, some say that questions remain whether the finding would still apply to members of the group. One crucial issue has been whether groups like the Boy Scouts are private organizations which may have wide latitude in establishing membership criteria, or instead fall under the mantle of "public accommodations" which make them subject to civil rights laws. Critics point out that the BSA often receives sponsorship along with material and even financial aid from local and state governments. The President of the United States is designated as the "honorary chairman" of the organization, and various governmental agencies including the Department of Defense have made extensive resource available to the BSA. That, say the critics, amounts to government-sponsored discrimination. Communities throughout the country have weighed in on the controversy, and so has congress. Nearly 100 municipalities have severed their official ties with the Boy Scouts, and in some cases even cut direct funding. Lawmakers have feuded over the issue as well, pushing competing bills on Capitol Hill. Some, like the "Scouts Honor Act," would have prohibited any entity receiving federal funds "to compel the Boy Scouts of America to employ, enroll, or accept as a member or volunteer an individual whose sexual orientation, sexual behavior, religious beliefs, or absence of religious beliefs is determined by the Boy Scouts of America to be inconsistent with the organization's policies, programs, morals or mission." Other efforts have attempted to pull the Boy Scouts special Congressional Charter. The national Boy Scouts of America organization has remained uncompromising in its attitude toward gay and Atheist youth. In February of this year, the BSA board adopted a resolution deeming homosexuals and nonbelievers as unfit and morally unacceptable role models for youth. The move came as local Scout Councils were demanding change within the organization, including greater autonomy for state and regional groups. A statement from the BSA declared that "an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices. In affirming its existing standards of leadership, the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's 92-year history." Scott Cozza, the president of the Scouting For All group which seeks to bring tolerance into the ranks of the BSA said, "It is ironic that the BSA core value of respecting diversity is not practiced within the organization. And it's a shame that the BSA National Office is turning a deaf ear to its members." Cozza's group is also condemning the threats to dismiss Darrel Lambert. "I think it's horrible that the Boy Scouts of America would kick out Lambert. He is more of an Eagle Scout than many Eagle Scouts who believe in god. believing in god is not a measure of the quality of a person." Cozza noted that the two murderers of Matthew Shepard, a gay youth, were an Eagle Scout and Mormon. "The character of a person is seen by how a person lives his life," said Cozza. "When will the Boy Scouts of America ever learn that their policy of discrimination is a violation of their own scout oath and law, and hurts kids?" By the way...my sister has her kids in "Sprial Scouts" which is scouting for Pagans and other minority beliefs.

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10-29-2002, 06:06 PM	#2
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Thanks for posting that. I hope some good comes from the fight. I sent a letter to the Boston Globe about their discrimination against atheists a few weeks ago. They didn't print it - at least yet.

10-29-2002, 06:11 PM	#3
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Have you got a link to that. It's not immediately obvious from the AA website.

10-29-2002, 06:22 PM	#4
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Here is a different version of the story. <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134564883_boyscout29m.html" target="_blank">Seattle Times</a>

10-29-2002, 07:12 PM	#5
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Thanks for the article. I sent it to a local reporter who has done articles concerning gays and scouting but refused to even respond to me when I brought up Atheists' rights.

10-30-2002, 06:15 AM	#6
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Darrell Lambert, <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> We need more folks like you to show the world the insanity of believing that atheists can't be good, moral people who want to help others. I was a Scout for a good many years. Lost interest before obtaining Eagle, but I never felt any religious pressure from BSA. Sure, they say, "A Scout is reverent." But why can't that mean respectful and tolerant? This issue is going to make the Scouts look bad, and that saddens me, because I believe it's otherwise a great organization! I was only just beginning to really question my beliefs when I left the Scouts, so there was never an issue of non-belief with me. My advice to the Scouts would be to take the hit on this and update their ideologies to be more tolerant of those with different belief systems. Yeah, they'll lose some face for having fought it, but in the end it'll help their image. I mean this Darrell kid sounds like the kind of kid you'd want your daughter dating. Well, we'll see what happens.

10-30-2002, 06:21 AM	#7
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	Bravo. I hope that this case may finally blow the whole thing open. Most people are now aware that the BS discriminates against gays, but the anti-atheist aspect never gets much coverage in the media, and most people don't know about the loyalty oath at all.

10-30-2002, 08:46 AM	#10
mibby529 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cali Posts: 170	The Scouts are known for this. They've effectively made racial and religious discrimination 100% legal when they got that right of "free association" so they could fire the gay Scoutmaster; American law is one of logical extremes.

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