Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stewbster · 06-09-2002, 05:54 PM

Chaos theory is fairly new as theories go but it seems to have far reaching effects... in the simpleist terms it means that order exists in apparent disorder and that small term effects add up over the long term. Weather is the best example of this.

the has implications for both the law of casualty and the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or so i think i could very well be wrong.

for example
the universe instead of running down could just be fluctuating between two or more "steady states".... I am interested to hear if anyone else has thought about these implications...

stu

John Page · 06-09-2002, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stewbster:
<strong>the has implications for both the law of casualty....</strong>

stu:

To me, chaos theory seems to focus on how hitherto unforseen or unlikely causes can be linked to their results. However, while the flapping of a buttefly wing in Asia might be a cause of a great storm many miles away, there are many other inputs to that storm.

I'd be interested to know if Chaos theory has turned out to be anything more than this.

Cheers, John

stewbster · 06-09-2002, 06:24 PM

Quote:

To me, chaos theory seems to focus on how hitherto unforseen or unlikely causes can be linked to their results. However, while the flapping of a buttefly wing in Asia might be a cause of a great storm many miles away, there are many other inputs to that storm.

well chaos theory has much much more to it then just the "butterfly" effect. chaos theory has expanded to biology and other areas. some doctors have applyed it as a possible method of explantion of epileptic seziures. for the most part the theory deals with the "large picture." and as you say there are "many other inputs" that is the point. all those other little inputs add up to the large effect that you see, there is no one "cause."

that is where we enter the area of philosophical problems, the law of casualty relies on one cause on effect, it that is not entirely true then what does that mean?

in realation to the 2nd law of thermodynamics the entropy that we observe could conceivabliy revese itself as part of a larger systematic pattern. as per chaos theory.

these are all just thoughts, nothing more and thanks for the input.

stu

AdamWho · 06-09-2002, 06:29 PM

stewbster:
The definition of Chaos:
Chaos = sensitivity to initial conditions

There are no philosophical implications to chaos unless someone wishes to take the term chaos out of context. Relativity suffers from the same type of distortion by non-science people.

Quote:

implications for both the law of casualty and the 2nd law of thermodynamics

There is no law of causality as far as I know, either way, chaos does not invalidate causality or any laws of thermodynamics in any way.

Quote:

the universe instead of running down could just be fluctuating between two or more "steady states"

The most recent studies have shown that the universe is open; it will expend forever, and then burn out (heat death). Chaos has nothing to with this; it depends solely on the matter/energy density of the universe.

Chaos = sensitivity to initial conditions.

stewbster · 06-09-2002, 07:02 PM

well i figured i was getting onto tough ground. the art of philosophy has all but died in its grand sense, theoretical scientists are the real philosphers now. I don't think there is much i can add (if i am not careful i might subtract <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> )

ok that is quite true all chaotic systems are dependent upon there initial conditions. but would also be worried about the scientists takeing chaos "out of context."

there is a whole book prefaced by Feigenbaum himself that has a intro that asks these questions it is titled Chaos and Fractals : New Frontiers of Science

the causality that i refer to is the uncertinity principle. basicly it is a slap to scientific determinism.

and you are also right about the current findings so i can drop the argument about entropy. since that "funny energy" keeps all of the universe accelerateing at ever faster rates.

well i will shut up before i subtract further from the knowledge of the world

stu

thefugitivesaint · 06-09-2002, 07:29 PM

<a href="http://www.mindconnection.com/_links/lnkchaostheory.htm" target="_blank">This</a> page might help you delve furthur into the background, philosophy and practice of Chaos Theory.

-theSaint

tronvillain · 06-09-2002, 08:08 PM

As AdamWho said, it is difficult to see how chaos could invalidate causality or the laws of thermodynamics. It is of course possible for the entropy of a system to spontaneously decrease, but it is incredibly improbable.

AdamWho · 06-09-2002, 08:39 PM

Maybe you would like something more <a href="http://www.virtualchaos.org" target="_blank">cranky</a>

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: AdamWho ]</p>

NialScorva · 06-10-2002, 04:45 AM

Does Shroedinger's Equation qualify as chaotic?

The way I understand Shroedinger's Equation and the uncertainty principle is causality can be broken on the small scale, but as a rule, it will average out into predictability.

slept2long · 06-10-2002, 08:31 AM

I am ignorant to chaos theory except for what I've read on these posts. But it reminds me of something I read somewhere that was attributed to Einstein or Godel or someone whose name escapes me. It goes something like "All systems are inherently messed up in some way so trying to add more formulas or ways of looking at them are going to give you an imperfect view of that system". I guess that means quit thinking so damn hard or start accepting imperfection and work with it. Anyways since I said I was new to chaos theory I hope this is mildly relevant.

06-09-2002, 05:54 PM	#1
stewbster Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: America Posts: 14	the philosophical implications of Chaos theory Chaos theory is fairly new as theories go but it seems to have far reaching effects... in the simpleist terms it means that order exists in apparent disorder and that small term effects add up over the long term. Weather is the best example of this. the has implications for both the law of casualty and the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or so i think i could very well be wrong. for example the universe instead of running down could just be fluctuating between two or more "steady states".... I am interested to hear if anyone else has thought about these implications... stu

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06-09-2002, 07:02 PM	#5
stewbster Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: America Posts: 14	well i figured i was getting onto tough ground. the art of philosophy has all but died in its grand sense, theoretical scientists are the real philosphers now. I don't think there is much i can add (if i am not careful i might subtract <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> ) ok that is quite true all chaotic systems are dependent upon there initial conditions. but would also be worried about the scientists takeing chaos "out of context." there is a whole book prefaced by Feigenbaum himself that has a intro that asks these questions it is titled Chaos and Fractals : New Frontiers of Science the causality that i refer to is the uncertinity principle. basicly it is a slap to scientific determinism. and you are also right about the current findings so i can drop the argument about entropy. since that "funny energy" keeps all of the universe accelerateing at ever faster rates. well i will shut up before i subtract further from the knowledge of the world stu

06-09-2002, 07:29 PM	#6
thefugitivesaint Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: philadelphia, PA. USA. Posts: 682	<a href="http://www.mindconnection.com/_links/lnkchaostheory.htm" target="_blank">This</a> page might help you delve furthur into the background, philosophy and practice of Chaos Theory. -theSaint

06-09-2002, 08:08 PM	#7
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	As AdamWho said, it is difficult to see how chaos could invalidate causality or the laws of thermodynamics. It is of course possible for the entropy of a system to spontaneously decrease, but it is incredibly improbable.

06-09-2002, 08:39 PM	#8
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	Maybe you would like something more <a href="http://www.virtualchaos.org" target="_blank">cranky</a> [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: AdamWho ]</p>

06-10-2002, 04:45 AM	#9
NialScorva Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Median strip of DC beltway Posts: 1,888	Does Shroedinger's Equation qualify as chaotic? The way I understand Shroedinger's Equation and the uncertainty principle is causality can be broken on the small scale, but as a rule, it will average out into predictability.

06-10-2002, 08:31 AM	#10
slept2long Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,066	I am ignorant to chaos theory except for what I've read on these posts. But it reminds me of something I read somewhere that was attributed to Einstein or Godel or someone whose name escapes me. It goes something like "All systems are inherently messed up in some way so trying to add more formulas or ways of looking at them are going to give you an imperfect view of that system". I guess that means quit thinking so damn hard or start accepting imperfection and work with it. Anyways since I said I was new to chaos theory I hope this is mildly relevant.

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