Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GarColga · 08-18-2002, 09:59 AM

sparty, thanks for the tip on the book. I lurk here and rarely post because some of the 'regulars' seem to be more interested in their little in-group BS than actually having real discussions.

Toto · 08-18-2002, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sparty:
No, I don't work in "advertising" - what is this hangup? I am a university tutor, actually...or is that a problem, too? I thought this would be an enlightening experience...so far only two of you have offered any interesting, or 'informed' comments...I thank you two! (oops, too long a paragraph for some, I fear?)

Hi sparty, sorry things got off on the wrong foot. We are somewhat used to people who "drive by" these boards and dump an advertisement for some commercial product, with no intention of coming back and discussing it. It doesn't look like you fit that profile, so my apologies for even thinking it.

Paragraph breaks make things more readable, that's all.

Quote:

(snip)

I guess I just wanted to find a real man under all the "fluff" of Christianity.
(snip)

While I am reading the ebook you recommended, why don't you try reading <a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=663" target="_blank">The Jesus Puzzle</a> (or the material online at <a href="http://www.jesuspuzzle.com" target="_blank">www.jesuspuzzle.com</a> and the review <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml" target="_blank">here</a>). It may give you a different perspective on your questions and a more satisfactory answer - which is that under the fluff, there was never any real man.

fishfood · 08-18-2002, 02:32 PM

Thanks, to both of you! I can understand that you would be fed up with such tactics, but I really do have a fascination for this topic. I can also see how this can become a full-time job in its own right!

I went online to download a student's essay, and couldn't help checking out your posted responses! Must curb the yearning!

Yes, have read JesusPuzzle - can't say I'm that impressed. I find it too easy - a "cop out" just to claim there was no one there at all...it isn't a way of dealing with the situatin in hand. As for the Review you recommend, I'll have to wait a bit to read that...work calls.

Again, thanks for being so polite and explaining the situation...almost turned tail and ran away!

Vorkosigan · 08-18-2002, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GarColga:
sparty, thanks for the tip on the book. I lurk here and rarely post because some of the 'regulars' seem to be more interested in their little in-group BS than actually having real discussions.

Then post more often. Can't make change if you lurk, GarColga.

wildernesse · 08-18-2002, 05:09 PM

Sparty:

I also apologize for assuming you were an advertisement�I hope that you stay active on Internet Infidels. As a relative newcomer and a theist, I know that making that first post can be difficult and criticism really tough, and I�m sorry that I was part of making this thread unpleasant for you.

Although I am a Christian, work on the historical Jesus is still interesting to me�even if I don�t agree with some ideas. Maybe I will read this book and a few others mentioned in this thread when I have the money to invest and a nice little job! (I don�t like reading anything of length online).

I hope that you start some new threads here to discuss your questions and ideas about Jesus and �what�s underneath all the fluff�. I�m sure that they will be interesting and provoke lots of comments!

I do have a question for you about your search. You say that none of the books you�ve read have convinced you. . . what do you want to be convinced of? That there�s a good reason for Christianity? I don�t think that you will find the answer to this question searching for the historical Jesus�but you might in histories and analysis of the early church and how the church gained power. Early church history is something that interests me very much, as that is the foundation of many extra-biblical Christian traditions and ideas that I may subscribe to.

Finally, welcome to this community. I�ve found that almost everyone here is intelligent, funny, and well-read�among other things�and I aspire to be worthy of their company. Maybe you should introduce yourself <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=43" target="_blank">here</a> and let people say hi. I look forward to reading your views and chatting with you.

--tibac

fishfood · 08-19-2002, 08:29 AM

OK! Enough of introductions and apologies! We are all equals here, right? Every voice has an intelligent mind behind it, so...no more "lurking" GarCola...and widlernesse...I'm releved to see that the concept of an open-minded Christian is not an oxymoron after all! :-)

Let's get stuck in to some real (pardon the pun)Jesus-talk!

The Christian Church is, I believe, something quite distinct fom Jesus...which is why, I think, Tyson's book appealed to me so, as that is her standpoint, too. I agree that the history of the Church is fascinating, but for very different reasons. What I am more concerned with is Jesus' motivation, his beleifs, etc.

I have a 'working theory', a presumption, that he really did exist - if he didn't, what has been the basis of two thousand years' religious fervour?

If Jesus didn't exist, then are we also to deny Buddha, Muhammed? Even Santa Clause was based on a real-life person! If he didn't live, then we have on our hands a mystery even greater than the miracles themselves (e.g., why so many people think that he did!).

Even though I was raised a Catholic, I never really believed in all the miracles - the whole thing just seemed like a 'happy ending' fairy story. Only after a life of what Blake would call "Experience" did I return to my roots and start questioning.

I am a theist...but, I like to think, I am not a conformist. My god is MY god...something I personally relate to...and this is the idea I have about Jesus...that he had his own perception of God that what as odds with what Christianity now preaches.

In searching out answers to this puzzle, I stumbled across Tyson's book, and she offered some neat alternatives (which I would still like to discuss!).

I would like to hear anyone's ideas about what Jesus (the real person) was ACTUALLY trying to do.

Jayhawker Soule · 08-19-2002, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sparty:
I would like to hear anyone's ideas about what Jesus (the real person) was ACTUALLY trying to do.

Sell fish.

offa · 08-19-2002, 01:58 PM

Sparty,
I am a fan of Thiering. She says JOHN was written first and by JC himself before Paul discovered him at Damascus.

I have ordered Tyson's book.

Reading Thiering and buying her 12 year rule (I am sold) you will discover that the "12 year old Jesus" was actually 23 and that the 3 days later that Joseph and Mary discovered him was actually 3 years.

Read the first couple pages of Josephus' autobiography and you will discover a 23 year old Josephus who becomes a teacher after 3 years (his three years began as a teen and ended as a 26 year-old because he used diferent aging formats in the same paragraph).

The Jesus Puzzle crumbles unless Mark is written first.

John Eisenman agrees with Thiering but her leading character's are Jesus and John the Baptist whereas Eisenman uses St. James and the high priest Ananas (sp).

We have a lot of biblical scholars on this board, some (more than one) post under different Psuedo names in order to agree with one another.

They are obviously biblical scholars because in Scripture we have more than one name for individuals and locations.

thanks,
offa

offa · 08-19-2002, 02:10 PM

Oops (Offa has to connect the loose ends).
When Jesus was 23 years old he followed the teachings of the Gentile high priest (Samaritan
Eleazar Annas) and when he graduated he was guilty of adultery (changing his faith) and being guilty of adultery made him illegitimate. Jesus was born in 7 b.c. and had his bar mizvah in AD 6.
The 12 year old Jesus was 23 in AD 17 and the 3 days are Jubilee days (years) so he graduated in AD 19.

thanks, Offa

Vorkosigan · 08-19-2002, 03:23 PM

Offa -- where have you been!? Long time no see.

Sparty--
Lots of scholars consider Buddha, Mohammed and Confucius to be myths; see Jensen's recent book on Confucianism, for example, or Patricia Crone's work on Mohammed.

You can't answer the question of what Jesus was trying to do without answering the question of who he was. How do you propose to do that?

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08-18-2002, 09:59 AM	#11
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	sparty, thanks for the tip on the book. I lurk here and rarely post because some of the 'regulars' seem to be more interested in their little in-group BS than actually having real discussions.

08-18-2002, 02:32 PM	#13
fishfood Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Thanks, to both of you! I can understand that you would be fed up with such tactics, but I really do have a fascination for this topic. I can also see how this can become a full-time job in its own right! I went online to download a student's essay, and couldn't help checking out your posted responses! Must curb the yearning! Yes, have read JesusPuzzle - can't say I'm that impressed. I find it too easy - a "cop out" just to claim there was no one there at all...it isn't a way of dealing with the situatin in hand. As for the Review you recommend, I'll have to wait a bit to read that...work calls. Again, thanks for being so polite and explaining the situation...almost turned tail and ran away!

08-18-2002, 05:09 PM	#15
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Sparty: I also apologize for assuming you were an advertisement�I hope that you stay active on Internet Infidels. As a relative newcomer and a theist, I know that making that first post can be difficult and criticism really tough, and I�m sorry that I was part of making this thread unpleasant for you. Although I am a Christian, work on the historical Jesus is still interesting to me�even if I don�t agree with some ideas. Maybe I will read this book and a few others mentioned in this thread when I have the money to invest and a nice little job! (I don�t like reading anything of length online). I hope that you start some new threads here to discuss your questions and ideas about Jesus and �what�s underneath all the fluff�. I�m sure that they will be interesting and provoke lots of comments! I do have a question for you about your search. You say that none of the books you�ve read have convinced you. . . what do you want to be convinced of? That there�s a good reason for Christianity? I don�t think that you will find the answer to this question searching for the historical Jesus�but you might in histories and analysis of the early church and how the church gained power. Early church history is something that interests me very much, as that is the foundation of many extra-biblical Christian traditions and ideas that I may subscribe to. Finally, welcome to this community. I�ve found that almost everyone here is intelligent, funny, and well-read�among other things�and I aspire to be worthy of their company. Maybe you should introduce yourself <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=43" target="_blank">here</a> and let people say hi. I look forward to reading your views and chatting with you. --tibac

08-19-2002, 08:29 AM	#16
fishfood Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 9	OK! Enough of introductions and apologies! We are all equals here, right? Every voice has an intelligent mind behind it, so...no more "lurking" GarCola...and widlernesse...I'm releved to see that the concept of an open-minded Christian is not an oxymoron after all! :-) Let's get stuck in to some real (pardon the pun)Jesus-talk! The Christian Church is, I believe, something quite distinct fom Jesus...which is why, I think, Tyson's book appealed to me so, as that is her standpoint, too. I agree that the history of the Church is fascinating, but for very different reasons. What I am more concerned with is Jesus' motivation, his beleifs, etc. I have a 'working theory', a presumption, that he really did exist - if he didn't, what has been the basis of two thousand years' religious fervour? If Jesus didn't exist, then are we also to deny Buddha, Muhammed? Even Santa Clause was based on a real-life person! If he didn't live, then we have on our hands a mystery even greater than the miracles themselves (e.g., why so many people think that he did!). Even though I was raised a Catholic, I never really believed in all the miracles - the whole thing just seemed like a 'happy ending' fairy story. Only after a life of what Blake would call "Experience" did I return to my roots and start questioning. I am a theist...but, I like to think, I am not a conformist. My god is MY god...something I personally relate to...and this is the idea I have about Jesus...that he had his own perception of God that what as odds with what Christianity now preaches. In searching out answers to this puzzle, I stumbled across Tyson's book, and she offered some neat alternatives (which I would still like to discuss!). I would like to hear anyone's ideas about what Jesus (the real person) was ACTUALLY trying to do.

08-19-2002, 01:58 PM	#18
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Sparty, I am a fan of Thiering. She says JOHN was written first and by JC himself before Paul discovered him at Damascus. I have ordered Tyson's book. Reading Thiering and buying her 12 year rule (I am sold) you will discover that the "12 year old Jesus" was actually 23 and that the 3 days later that Joseph and Mary discovered him was actually 3 years. Read the first couple pages of Josephus' autobiography and you will discover a 23 year old Josephus who becomes a teacher after 3 years (his three years began as a teen and ended as a 26 year-old because he used diferent aging formats in the same paragraph). The Jesus Puzzle crumbles unless Mark is written first. John Eisenman agrees with Thiering but her leading character's are Jesus and John the Baptist whereas Eisenman uses St. James and the high priest Ananas (sp). We have a lot of biblical scholars on this board, some (more than one) post under different Psuedo names in order to agree with one another. They are obviously biblical scholars because in Scripture we have more than one name for individuals and locations. thanks, offa

08-19-2002, 02:10 PM	#19
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Oops (Offa has to connect the loose ends). When Jesus was 23 years old he followed the teachings of the Gentile high priest (Samaritan Eleazar Annas) and when he graduated he was guilty of adultery (changing his faith) and being guilty of adultery made him illegitimate. Jesus was born in 7 b.c. and had his bar mizvah in AD 6. The 12 year old Jesus was 23 in AD 17 and the 3 days are Jubilee days (years) so he graduated in AD 19. thanks, Offa

08-19-2002, 03:23 PM	#20
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Offa -- where have you been!? Long time no see. Sparty-- Lots of scholars consider Buddha, Mohammed and Confucius to be myths; see Jensen's recent book on Confucianism, for example, or Patricia Crone's work on Mohammed. You can't answer the question of what Jesus was trying to do without answering the question of who he was. How do you propose to do that?

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