Freethought & Rationalism Archive

River · 06-21-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Yet Jalaal Ad-Deen As-Suyooti, in his Tafsir, comments upon the verse wal'ard ba'da dhaalika dahaaha thus: basataha ("He spread it out"). Are you saying Jalaal Ad-Deen was unable to grasp the subtleties of Arabic?

If the Arabic language is so flexible as to convey a multitude of meanings, then perhaps the command to perform the Hajj is not a command to perform the Hajj at all. Or I suspect Muslims are guilty of the Humpty Dumpty ploy: words mean what we define them to mean, nothing more, nothing less. How convenient!

And Jalaal Ad-Deen is also equally as correct as the so called "muslim apologist". But Spread it out does not necessarily indicate flatness. Why would the Quran mention Orbits if the Author also believes in a Square Planet? Your revisionist look into a rather innocuous verse is rather odd.

TiredJim · 06-21-2003, 02:05 PM

How exactly does one spread something out into a solid sphere?

emotional · 06-21-2003, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by River
But Spread it out does not necessarily indicate flatness.

Yes it does. Why didn't the writer use the verb kawwara (to roll up) with regard to the making of the earth?

The description of our modern cosmology in an ancient book must be simple but it is not impossible. See, for example, how Genesis could be made to exhibit the modern model:

http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/sci-gen1.htm

So it is surprising that the Qur'an doesn't talk about "the stones that circle the Sun".

Quote:

Why would the Quran mention Orbits if the Author also believes in a Square Planet? Your revisionist look into a rather innocuous verse is rather odd.

Circuits of the Sun, moon and stars have nothing to do with the shape of the earth. A primitive flat-earther can see the Sun, moon and stars following regular circuits in the sky.

On that matter, the Qur'an is pretty consistent in its description of geocentrism, instead of modern heliocentrism:

http://www.fixedearth.com/koran.html

River · 06-21-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiredJim
How exactly does one spread something out into a solid sphere?

I would imagine it would probably have to do with angular velocity/acceleration and Excessive heat or cold accompaning the Big Bang. Or perhaps we are looking too deeply into a verse that might have been a soft metaphor or expression.

Chapter: 21, Verse: 30
Have not "those who disbelieve" known heavens and earth were of one piece,
We parted them and, We made every living thing of water
Will they not then believe?

River · 06-21-2003, 02:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by emotional

Yes it does. Why didn't the writer use the verb kawwara (to roll up) with regard to the making of the earth?

The description of our modern cosmology in an ancient book must be simple but it is not impossible. See, for example, how Genesis could be made to exhibit the modern model:

http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/sci-gen1.htm

So it is surprising that the Qur'an doesn't talk about "the stones that circle the Sun".

Circuits of the Sun, moon and stars have nothing to do with the shape of the earth. A primitive flat-earther can see the Sun, moon and stars following regular circuits in the sky.

On that matter, the Qur'an is pretty consistent in its description of geocentrism, instead of modern heliocentrism:

River's Response:

kawaara means "to overlap" or " to coil' like a turban over a round head. And I thought you said you knew arabic

reddhedd · 06-21-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haverbob
What about if he already did and we stuck a mask on it without being aware of the fact that we did? No argument, just offering a different way to see it.

Again, if he wants us to do the "right" stuff, he needs to point out our mistake, and clarify things. Either he can't, or he won't.
If I tell my kids to do something a certain way, and they don't because they misunderstood me, then it isn't fair that I punish them for failing to follow my guidelines. First, I need to make sure they understand exactly what I'm saying. If one child is relaying my instructions to another, and doesn't quite get the massage exact, then who do I punish? The one who didn't do as I say or the one that passed on the message incorrectly? Or, perhaps, I should sit them both down and restate my instructions in clear and concise terms. If I can be misinterpreted, then I wasn't clear and concise, was I?
If I can be misinterpreted, then why punish my well meaning children?
I will not fault my children if they try to come to the source and ask me what I said. Nor will I ignore them, or give them more ambiguous instructions.
If god wants/needs reassurance that I believe in his existence, he needs to give me better proof than 1/2 dozen books (bible, Q'uran, etc) translated and re- translated through thousands of years, containing scores of errors and supported by the mass murders and rampages of rabid fundamentalists
of all faiths.

l

TiredJim · 06-21-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by River
Or perhaps we are looking too deeply into a verse that might have been a soft metaphor or expression.

Hmm... once again lack of clarity.

And of course, planets don't form by being spread out anyway. They form by many particles coming together.

MollyMac · 06-21-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

River's Response:

kawaara means "to overlap" or " to coil' like a turban over a round head. And I thought you said you knew arabic

So what is the correct Arabic for "to roll into a ball"?

Any why doesn't it use that phrase in the Qu'ran instead of "to spread out"?

River · 06-21-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haverbob
Okay, so it seems you are saying you feel that you need Allah. And you answered the question in an elegent way. You are thoughtful and since you are, then I would like to provide one more thought.

Based on what you said, you have made it impossible for you to TRULY and COMPLETELY love Allah, as you may think you do (or maybe Islam tells you that you do). It is a commonly held notion that one cannot fully love anything or anybody (let alone Allah) if they also need that thing or person (or God). If they do, their love is destined to be either partially or completely due to the fact that they are really loving the fulfillment of their needs, and not the thing, person (or God) itself. This translates into love of one's self and not much more (if any more).

It's understandable that people would do this. But could you imagine never realizing this and then going in front of Allah looking for your peice of the pie that you earned, your reward for your sacrifices, when all that you did was essentially love yourself in your sacrifices? Maybe he would have mercy and still give you a smaller peice of the pie or maybe he would give you the whole pie itself, a "humble pie" in the face like a Three Stooges episode. Who knows.

I never understood how people make "deals" (sacrifices) with a timeless entity. An entity that represents the most unfathonable concept know to the human race, the concept of no beginning or origin. I scratch your back you scratch mine". Is that how it works? Maybe God doesn't understand the concept of deals but if he does, it's surely because he watched us create the concept.

Sufi Islam, or the Mystic Path of Islam stresses the love of G-d. I have been recently studying Sufi Islam (not secterian sufiism that involves whirling dervishes). It is not a separate branch as its been mistaken. It involves emphasis on "Ihsan" or Sincerity/beauty.

May God take from you everything that takes you from him.
Rabia al-Adawiyya (a Sufi mystic, 717-800 C.E.)

"O God!
If I adore You out of fear of Hell,
burn me in Hell!
If I adore You out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore You for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty" -Rabi'a

"Let me hide in You
From everything
that distracts me from You,
From everything that comes in my way
When I want to run to You. "-Rabia

" I have not created Jinn and man but to know Me" [ Sura Dhariyat 56 Noble Quran]

And Say: "My Lord, increase me in knowledge!" [ Noble Quran 20:114]

River · 06-21-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haverbob
TiredJim seems to want to discuss the scientific validity of the Quran with you. I would like to jump in on this as well if I may (I'll leave that NEEDS notion to you for right now).

Here is a question that I can never seem to get an answer to. I think perhaps you can answer me because of your Science background. Knowing what shooting stars REALLY are, how do you reconcile this with the Quran's account of the relationship between them and the Jinn trying to eavesdrop on Heaven?

If you answer this convincingly, you will have performed a major feat that I have yet to see any Muslim do in my conversations with them. And I will actually thank you (assuming it makes sense).

I would love to reply, but I am not exactly sure what verse or concept you are referring to. Perhaps I know the answer...or maybe it is beyond me? Can you please clarify further....

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06-21-2003, 02:05 PM	#62
TiredJim Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: here, sometimes there Posts: 71	How exactly does one spread something out into a solid sphere?

06-21-2003, 02:31 PM	#65
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	[QUOTE]Originally posted by emotional Yes it does. Why didn't the writer use the verb kawwara (to roll up) with regard to the making of the earth? The description of our modern cosmology in an ancient book must be simple but it is not impossible. See, for example, how Genesis could be made to exhibit the modern model: http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/sci-gen1.htm So it is surprising that the Qur'an doesn't talk about "the stones that circle the Sun". Circuits of the Sun, moon and stars have nothing to do with the shape of the earth. A primitive flat-earther can see the Sun, moon and stars following regular circuits in the sky. On that matter, the Qur'an is pretty consistent in its description of geocentrism, instead of modern heliocentrism: River's Response: kawaara means "to overlap" or " to coil' like a turban over a round head. And I thought you said you knew arabic

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