Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 05-15-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Well crap. I just posted a big fat LONG response....and then my computer crashed. I just now got it back up. I'll respond in the near future when I'm not pissed at the PC.

Hello Muffinstuffer,

Perhaps your comments weren't quite up to snuff, and required some of that ever-so-elusive divine intervention?

What you might want to do is before you hit the "submit reply" button, block your text and hit CTRL-C to copy it to the clipboard. Then if Lord Shiva decides to interfere again with your post you can just bring up the message screen again and paste the text into it with CTRL-V.

cheers,
Michael

Rhea · 05-16-2003, 06:09 AM

Sage advice, Michael. Sage advice.

God works in mysterious ways! (But you can get around it with a little planning

)

Muffinstuffer · 05-16-2003, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Hi Muffinstuffer

Welcome to II. You really have a busy thread here.

No kidding! Not bad for my first try.

Quote:

When I get approached by a christian with this tone, I immediately think of somone high on their "Christian" plateau looking down to "help" those poor deluded heathens. This coming from someone I don't really know irritates me. It imples a lack of respect for my position. The person isn't really thinking of me, but of themselves only, and how good it will make them feel to "help" the non-believer.

Before you try to "help" someone, why not first take the time to get to know them. Perhaps you will find they are happy with thier life and really have no need of the "help". Perhaps you will find they have already considered the offer and have very good reasons for not accepting the "help".

I already SAID that in a previous post.

Seriously. My exact words were "I do hope you understand that when I talk to someone about my faith, a) if I am the initiator, I usually do so ONLY after getting to know that person AND finding out if they are receptive to it. By that time, they know that a) I'm not out to hurt or alienate them, and b) even if I did, it would not be intentional."

Quote:

Perhaps you only remember the rude ones. What about the ones who were polite, or simply ignored you with "yeah, whatever."?

Remember, I spent 5 years living - literally living - on the USS Enterprise. Lots of nice civil people there. Heh heh. Sure, there were a lot of polite ones. But there were almost as many rude ones.

Quote:

I worked at a job once where we discussed religion all the time. It started when me and a co-worker (a evangelical christian but not fundy) started discussing religion. We had a lot of fun as we both respected the other's position. We also had been friends and served in the Air Force together for some years. We discussed things that the other co-workers sometimes had problems with. They were amazed that we could discuss homosexuality, incest, genecide, etc in religion and the bible while having a civil discussion.

But then he did not try to witness to me, and I did not insult him either. He knew that as an intelligent person living in the US, I had already heard the christian message and had rejected it with some well thought out reasons.

See, there you go. You have almost EXACTLY described the conversations I have with my LPO (Leading Petty Officer) and with my Wiccan friend. Obviously, as a Christian, I try to live by example, and if some of it 'rubs off' on him, well, hooray then.

But if not, it's his choice, and far be it from me to force it onto him.

Quote:

It was interesting when a new subcontractor joined our team at work. This one was a far-right fundy christian who would get very upset when my friend would say something and I would come back with a counter argument. This fundy person would get very angry with the fact that an atheist was giving her opinion about something religious. It got really bad one day when he stated that "people like me should have a bullet put in the backs of thier heads." I responded with "I'd like to see you try, but remember my daddy taught me to shoot when I was 5 years old." Well, he stormed out of the office, and I've already described what happened later in another thread.

Dang. Well, for one, I apologize for THAT guy.

I ASSURE you that is not my method of witnessing, when I do it. On top of that, I don't actually witness IN the office. If someone asks me I'll usually tell them we'll get together on the lunch hour. For two, I would like to point out that being a 'fundie', to me, means accepting the standard stuff that 'fundies' accept - the Bible as the inerrant word of God, In God We Trust on the dollar, and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean I go out of my way to try to be a jerk.

Quote:

What was even funnier, however, was the promise keeper manager who put christmas cards one everyones desk but mine, and two other co-worker's desks (one was jewish and one was buddhist). We got that "special tract" treatment. YUCKKK.

Hmm...I guess you didn't rate a "Merry" Christmas, huh.

Quote:

So I don't think it was me giving the bad attitude, but I will stand up for myself, even if it means sometimes getting in someone's face to do it.

Sorry for the long post, and welcome.

Hey, in this case, I'm on YOUR side. I can understand his BASIC wishes - for you to 'know' the One he knows. But that's obviously the WRONG way to go about it. I can't BELIEVE he said that remark about the bullets.

Muffinstuffer · 05-16-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
Interesting that you should bring this up. I've always found it to be both profoundly insulting and profoundly entertaining at the same time.

When I hear a christian say that, I think to myself,

translation: "there is nothing that being a christian does for you in terms of behavior, it's just that I'm going to heaven and you're not. Neener, neener."

Think about it. What is the purpose of the statement. Can you argue that it is NOT just a statement of neener neener?

I've always been genuinely perplexed when christians think it's a useful statement. Makes me lean toward a little sarcasm. if you'll indulge me, "Atheists aren't forgiven, they're just nicer." Hmmm, I'll have to work on that.

Sure I can argue that. It's all about intention. One can read into it anything one wants. I don't care what people THINK about it SHOULD mean for me...for ME, it means that the ONLY difference between me and any other person - the ONLY thing that 'saves' me, so to speak, is the fact that I'm forgiven. That's it. To me it does NOT mean "Haha, you poor sap....I'm forgiven.....you're not." It just means that NO Christian is perfect, and that the only thing that 'sets us apart' is being forgiven.

Now, if you want to equate 'sets us apart' with 'better than you', well, I can not stop you from doing that. But people can read a lot into things that aren't there. For ME, it's not there. For someone else? I can't speak for them. But I for one DO NOT going around thinking "Hah.....I'm glad I'm not like THOSE poor saps." If anything, I think "I wish they knew the happiness that I know." But that's not condescension, and it's not me forcing my will on others. It's just me caring about others.

Starboy · 05-16-2003, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
I can understand his BASIC wishes - for you to 'know' the One he knows. But that's obviously the WRONG way to go about it. I can't BELIEVE he said that remark about the bullets.

There is no right way to go about spreading a belief that has no basis in reality. To spread such a belief is fruad. If you were suckered well too bad for you, when you start trying to sucker others well then you are bad.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer · 05-16-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Hello Muffinstuffer,

Perhaps your comments weren't quite up to snuff, and required some of that ever-so-elusive divine intervention?

What you might want to do is before you hit the "submit reply" button, block your text and hit CTRL-C to copy it to the clipboard. Then if Lord Shiva decides to interfere again with your post you can just bring up the message screen again and paste the text into it with CTRL-V.

cheers,
Michael

Hahah.

You never know. I forget what the heck I wrote, because like I said, I got pissed off.

But oh well.

abe smith · 05-16-2003, 06:49 AM

my own personal experience: In public situations, strangers often initiate conversation/intercourse

with me; it's what human beings do In Ouah Cultcha to indicate that they are not hostile/threatening.
In these circs, my stock formula/response to their friendly overture(s) is "I'd be very happy to carry on a conversation with you (dear), but as I am too deaf to converse, I'll just nod & smile, okay?" Because being-silent doesn't bother me = I have my alleged mind's contents, not to mention the Scenery, to keep me amused.

BUT! Instead of accepting my polite response, have you any idea HOW MANY strangers then presume to tell me "You should get a Hearing Aid!" And can you imagine how ANGRY this makes me after the 20th,50th,100th time? I am not an ignorant idiot! and I have CHOSEN how I wish to deal-with my "defect".
So instead of coming-here to tell us how RUDE we are, Muffin-head, why not start a discussion about some germane subject?
Meanwhile welcome to our (Scotch) midst. Abe

Muffinstuffer · 05-16-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
There is no right way to go about spreading a belief that has no basis in reality. To spread such a belief is fruad. If you were suckered well too bad for you, when you start trying to sucker others well then you are bad.
Starboy

Of course this is one of those areas where you know I'd disagree with you, but then, you knew that already.

And I'm sure that even you can agree that his way was 'more wrong' than other ways.

Starboy · 05-16-2003, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
And I'm sure that even you can agree that his way was 'more wrong' than other ways.

Explain yourself and perhaps we may agree.

Starboy

Rhea · 05-16-2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Sure I can argue that. It's all about intention. One can read into it anything one wants. I don't care what people THINK about it SHOULD mean for me...for ME, it means that the ONLY difference between me and any other person - the ONLY thing that 'saves' me, so to speak, is the fact that I'm forgiven. That's it. To me it does NOT mean "Haha, you poor sap....I'm forgiven.....you're not." It just means that NO Christian is perfect, and that the only thing that 'sets us apart' is being forgiven.

Now, if you want to equate 'sets us apart' with 'better than you', well, I can not stop you from doing that. But people can read a lot into things that aren't there. For ME, it's not there. For someone else? I can't speak for them. But I for one DO NOT going around thinking "Hah.....I'm glad I'm not like THOSE poor saps." If anything, I think "I wish they knew the happiness that I know." But that's not condescension, and it's not me forcing my will on others. It's just me caring about others.

My debate about how I can take it revolves around comparing the three statements.

1. "Christians aren't perfect" Perhaps we don't agree on what this means (perhaps we do?) But when one really drives the conversation to conclusion one tends to find that they confess they are no better than me. Because usually this is pulled out in response to an actual example of a christian behaving no better than I do. So, "Christians aren't Perfect" = "Christianity makes no difference in behavior".

then there is this. How can we take this?

2. "BUT." this means, statement #1 is superceded by this. Statement #1 is about to be dismissed. The fact that christianity does NOT confer good behavior is suddenly not the point, it's being dismissed.

3. "They are forgiven" Now *you* claim this is an INTERNAL statement about how it makes you feel good, or "happy". Now you are arguing that it does NOT mean that by comparison you think your listener is NOT happy? Then why make the statement?

You appear to be saying that "Christians are not perfect, but they're forgiven" means, "I am NO DIFFERENT than you", but you seem to be also claiming that it does not mean, "but I'm happier". If that is true, then what is the point of saying you're forgiven? Hey, I'm forgiven, too.

Now we're all forgiven, you're no better than me and we all agree that there is no real demonstrable point to christianity.

So that begs the question.

Why did you say it? If NOT to tell me that you were better off than me, somehow. Whether it's perceived eternity or perceived internal contentment. I think a REASONABLE person can conclude that you are saying that by contrast, other are NOT forgiven - whatever that means. If you are claiming "forgiven" means "happy" or "content" then a reasonable person can conclude that you just said that they are NOT happy or content.

Either way, your statement DOES make a comparison. Maybe some English major can help out with the implied transitive gerund subject or something, but I believe that ALL REASONABLE PEOPLE can assume that the statement represents a COMPARISON of Christians to non-Christians.

And it is that COMPARISON that yields a "neener, neener"

Maybe I'm not communicating well, but I still do not see a reasonable argument for saying that the phrase in question is NOT intended to draw a comparison between the christian and the non. I welcome further discussion. If there is some polite and considerate way to take this statement, I am all over learning to look at it that way. But I hope you can guess that I have heard this statement more than once or twice, and have thought about it more than once or twice, and have questioned the utterers more than once or twice and have more than one or two brain cells to rub together, and have not yet found an explanation that can reasonably depart from an intent (however subconscious) to COMPARE the christian to the listener and conclude a superior plane.

If that makes any sense

05-16-2003, 06:49 AM	#57
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	a parallel, non-religious... my own personal experience: In public situations, strangers often initiate conversation/intercourse with me; it's what human beings do In Ouah Cultcha to indicate that they are not hostile/threatening. In these circs, my stock formula/response to their friendly overture(s) is "I'd be very happy to carry on a conversation with you (dear), but as I am too deaf to converse, I'll just nod & smile, okay?" Because being-silent doesn't bother me = I have my alleged mind's contents, not to mention the Scenery, to keep me amused. BUT! Instead of accepting my polite response, have you any idea HOW MANY strangers then presume to tell me "You should get a Hearing Aid!" And can you imagine how ANGRY this makes me after the 20th,50th,100th time? I am not an ignorant idiot! and I have CHOSEN how I wish to deal-with my "defect". So instead of coming-here to tell us how RUDE we are, Muffin-head, why not start a discussion about some germane subject? Meanwhile welcome to our (Scotch) midst. Abe

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05-16-2003, 06:09 AM	#52
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Sage advice, Michael. Sage advice. God works in mysterious ways! (But you can get around it with a little planning )

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