RJS

COAS, although I continue to find it difficult to see any compassion in the above message regarding Ms. Beamer, I understand it is possible that in fact you do sympathize with her on the anniversary of her husband's tragic death. I apologize for offending you, if I did, with any of my posts.

RJS

So is this line of thinking the same as the hijackers? I ask honestly, not being a comparative thinking expert (obviously).

I believe in the in the laws of science, I want to get to Fiji by Saturday, I book a flight and take it... I get to Fiji.

simian

Compare with your earlier comments on Beamer:
Are you telling me that she is saying that her father's eternal death prepared her for her husband's eternal dealth? I seriously doubt Beamer is one who believes that those found unworthy of "eternal life" just cease to exist. I find it much more likely she believes in eternal torment for them.

As a second item, I have no doubts that the highjackers thought what they were doing was noble, just, and god's will. Submission to god's will is what it is about. Granted, Beamer is not going around killing people, but the basic feelings about humanity seem to be similar ("submit to my god, or you are only worthy of death").

Simian

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: simian ]</p>

RJS

The earlier quote was taken from the MSNBC article - and are not my words. I thought that was understood, given the embedded quotes. I posted more than the original poster to confirm my suspicion (relevant or not) that she was "talking to herself". No need to argue that again.

Do you see ANY DIFFERENCES in her thinking compared to the hijackers? That is what we are looking for.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

simian

Good point RJS, the earlier message was more directly from Beamer. So your recent comments were not contradicting what you said, they are contradicting what she said. And you did not answer qestions on that from earlier in this thread.

As for differences in thinking, Christ-on-a-Stick covered it very well earlier with:

Perhaps I missed your reply to that? The closest I have seen from you as a response to this seems to be "yeah, parts 1-4 are thinking the same, but the actions they take on their thoughts are different."

If we are looking for differences in thinking, I see marginal differences. If we look at how humanity is viewed, their thoughts on the value of human existance (completely worthless), I see none. If we look at actions I see significant differences.

cheetah

RJS,
This is an extremely biased way of presenting it. A more general way of presenting it is that the hijackers and Beamer both believe their God is the true god and they would do ANYTHING that god told them to do. We are terribly unlucky that the hijackers god "told" them to terrorize America, but we must recognize that we are also extremely lucky that Beamer's god has not yet "told" her to go kill anyone. Similarly, we are unlucky that some Christians are "told" by their god to go murder other people, abortion doctors, etc., while we are lucky that most Muslims are NOT "told" by Allah that they should murder more people. I say lucky, because of course, no one has any control over what an imaginary deity might say to someone, or how someone will interpret a large text riddled with incosistencies (I avoid being too paranoid, but one could spend all their time wondering if Christians will listen more to the commandments not to kill or the commandments to kill...).

Again, the bottom line is, the deities in question both demand unerring loyalty to whatever they say now or in the future. Both have "said" similar things that are offensive, particularly that those that are not unerringly loyal are evil and damned. At times, followers of both deities have killed non-followers for this evil. There is no difference in Beamer's thinking about her deity and the hijackers thinking about their deity. The thinking of both sides is similarly unflinching in their damnation of the non-believers. Again, the only difference is that next step. The taking matters into their own hands step.

DarkBronzePlant

For the record, Lisa What's-her-name (the Verizon operator, not the widow) was on Larry King the other night; she claimed that Todd Beamer told her that they planned to take back the plane in order to land it safely. He seemed pretty sure they would be able to do so.

So, though even I get a rah-rah-fight-fight-fight kind of feeling when I think of the passenger uprising on Flight 93, it seems clear that they weren't acting primarily to save others' lives, and also that they didn't actually prevent any additional tragedy (as there were fighters dispatched at that point, and they already had permission to shoot Flight 93 down.)

christ-on-a-stick

RJS,

Just got in (argh...need more coffee...) and simian seems to have already summed it up well with:

When I asked in the OP (in a frustrated/angry way, I will admit) how is her thinking and different than that of the hijackers, this is exactly what I meant. I could have been more specific, saying "how is her thinking regarding the value of human beings who don't believe in her god any different than that of the hijackers?"

The hijackers took their thoughts to the next step - taking action PERSONALLY. In the Bible, the Israelites did the same thing - killed non-believers on God's orders. I would venture to guess that Lisa Beamer does not condemn those actions (of the Israelites) but rather would try to explain them away, while insisting that God wouldn't ask his followers to do those things NOW, but never being able to explain "why not?" This is what scares me; the typical Xian inability to reflect critically on their own beliefs and realize how much those beliefs have in common with those of the ones who, in this case, brutally killed their loved ones.

christ-on-a-stick

RJS -

Sorry, forgot to address this -

No problemo, your posts have not offended me, just the inital "faceless coward" remark. Thanks for the apology tho.

I can actually fully understand how my OP did not convey much sympathy for the widow, probably because that was not the topic I was addressing. In fact, earlier on in the very same MSNBC article that contained the quote that "set me off" so to speak, Mrs. Beamer related how she would often cry into one of her husband's shirts because she could still smell him. This imagery actually brought tears to my eyes. I can't even imagine the pain of losing a husband, especially with two children and one on the way... and my heart goes out to her for that loss.

My anger and frustration, in a way, is not even really focused on her directly; when I read her words about her beliefs it didn't make me say "argh, this woman is evil, a horrible person, just as bad as the hijackers!" What it made me feel was an intense feeling of <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> - at what I see as a very common case of cognitive dissonance among Xians - as I said above, their inability to see the similarities between their thinking and that of the people that they (rightfully) see as murderous bastards.

It saddens me, as well, because I am often overcome with a great sense of futility - a feeling that we have so very, very far to go before humanity "grows up" and stops killing each other over whose imaginary friend is the real one.

Jamie_L

RJS:
Although discussing sinners deserving of "eternal death" softens things, I don't really think that is the full intention and implication of the quote in the OP (and the fuller quote you posted).

The bit about thinking we deserve a happy life seems to imply that none of us are deserving of the actual life we have, and that we should thank God for whatever we have, even if it is miserable and cut brutally short in a horrific way. Because, after all, we don't deserve any better.

My problem with this line of reasoning is that, when taken to its conclusion, every imaginable suffering is okay, because none of us really deserve anything better anyway. Rape. Torture. Murder. Genocide. We're all sinners, so what's all the complaining about?

Jamie