Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sighhswolf · 09-14-2002, 03:03 PM

David,
You should expect nothing else considering the fact that the most venerated of all the gods mankind has invented are for the most part gods of war, and storms, and vengence.

It appears that almost every culture, civilization has elevated their mythological warrior gods to the highest position.
Take for example the Judeo/Christian god Jehovah.
A storm god, a god of war death and destruction,
a vengeful god who maintains his position through intimidation and the fear of his terrible retribution.
A god who supplied his earthly warriors with the use of a terrible weapon of mass destruction.
A weapon given to his chosen people that no army could stand against, an indefeatable totally destructive force contained and given to the ancient Hebrews for the express purpose of wiping out any and all opposition to his people and his will.
And along with the weapon, this war god gives his earthly generals battle plans to assure the success of their campaigns.

Wolf

ashibaka · 09-14-2002, 03:10 PM

Let's simplify--

Religion may not start wars, but religion gets people to fight wars.

True enough?

David M. Payne · 09-14-2002, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:
Revolutionary war?

Don't think so SB, religious persecution was the biggest reason for the exodus of people from England to the colonies here in the first place. And if I remember my history lessons, religion played a big part in justifying why it was right to revolt from England, and why it was right for the King to seek to keep us under his thumb. The divine rights of kings after all was a right the God supposedly gave Kings, remember? As in all other wars, there were economic, political, social, etc reasons for the war, but God/religion was used as a justification for this war by both sides too. God is so handy that way, he's always on your side, and the other guys side too!

David

David M. Payne · 09-14-2002, 03:19 PM

Sighhswolf, ashibaka, well made points. God is at his most powerful when he is used to punish his follower's enemies.

David

diana · 09-14-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
So far it looks like the case can be made that God (S) and religion are an integral part of the war biz, as either the prime reason for the war, (See 9/11 and the Islamic fundies desire to make us decadent westerners "submit" to Islam and Allah for the latest example of God/religion being the prime motivation for the war.) Or God and religion is used as a moral justification for pursuing the underlying reasons for war, economic, political, social and ethnic etc grievances. The war in the Balkans is a good example of this last point, though I think religious conflict may runs neck and neck with the other reasons for that war. So it appears that God/religion is the prime motivator (the spark) for war these days, with many underlying factors serving as the fuel for the conflicts. Now if we could just eliminate the spark, perhaps we could solve the fuel problems that present so much peril to us all.

David

Hey there, me old roomie.

What ashibaka said.

I think no matter what happens, you'll have no shortage of bible-thumpers (or Koran-thumpers, or whatever) "explaining" that thing with God's help (in deference to Amos, I mean their interpretation of "God's wishes"). As long as there are believers, this will happen--so get used to it, because there will always be masses of the uneducated, ignorant, lazy, irresponsible and fearful who would rather just believe simple stories than bother learning fact. (I threw in "irresponsible" because they'd rather blame their actions on the devil than accept personal responsibility for them.)

In the case of wars, I often think this was one of the reasons the very notion of "religion" and "higher powers" arose in the first place--to convince the masses to do violence and risk their lives for what essentially were political reasons.

How better to get people to be personally motivated to risk their lives to achieve their leaders' objectives than to promise them divine approval (or threaten them with divine punishment if they don't)?

d

David M. Payne · 09-20-2002, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:


Hey there, me old roomie.

What ashibaka said.

I think no matter what happens, you'll have no shortage of bible-thumpers (or Koran-thumpers, or whatever) "explaining" that thing with God's help (in deference to Amos, I mean their interpretation of "God's wishes"). As long as there are believers, this will happen--so get used to it, because there will always be masses of the uneducated, ignorant, lazy, irresponsible and fearful who would rather just believe simple stories than bother learning fact. (I threw in "irresponsible" because they'd rather blame their actions on the devil than accept personal responsibility for them.)

In the case of wars, I often think this was one of the reasons the very notion of "religion" and "higher powers" arose in the first place--to convince the masses to do violence and risk their lives for what essentially were political reasons.

How better to get people to be personally motivated to risk their lives to achieve their leaders' objectives than to promise them divine approval (or threaten them with divine punishment if they don't)?

d

Amen Diana, the reward/punishment (Heaven/hell) is the strongest inducement religion has for its existence. It's very handy in getting people to do things they would never do if they realized that there was no heaven to go to after death.

PS, how's the kid doing? (Just kidding Tallulah.)

David

RJS · 09-20-2002, 03:13 PM

FWIW, Saddam is an atheist (other than viewing himself as a god

)

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

sullster · 09-20-2002, 03:13 PM

Being a history and Civil War buff,I want to add my thoughts on whether that war involved god and religion. I say it did very much.

Us atheists don't like to face it, but the USA from its inception, had a vision of itself as being god's chosen nation. In the mid-nineteenth century this idea was very strong.

Thus my points about the Civil War: The North fought to destroy the heretical south who were splitting god's chosen nation. The South fought to recreate god's chosen nation in the southern states because the heretical Yankees had turned it to sin. The southerners actually accused the North of "free love", avarice and catholicism.

Oh yes, the abolitionists. They were fanatically religious. In Kansas and Missouri they killed slave owners with a fervor only the religious can have. In response the South justified slavery on biblical terms and they too killed with reckless abandon in Kansas and Missouri.

I see the US Civil War as very religious. How else could such killing occur. Read about the deaths in Civil War battles, it is utterly horrid.

09-20-2002, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
FWIW, Saddam is an atheist (other than viewing himself as a god

)

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Yes, so I understand and that speaks in favor of his peace loving nature. Bush is the religious fanatic and must be wrong.

Ut · 09-20-2002, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
FWIW, Saddam is an atheist (other than viewing himself as a god

)

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

I'll copy paste a post I made in the Political Discussions Forum 10 days ago.
-----------------------------------------------
I think the charge of Saddam as an atheist was made by Bin Laden and recuperated by Christian fundies. From <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18.htm" target="_blank">Verbal assaults against Pagans and others by Fundamentalist Christian leaders</a>

Quote:

AANEWS commented that an " 'atheist' is a term used in Middle Eastern discourse to often refer to those who believe in religions other than the peculiar and discreet faith of the individual making the accusation. A Shi'ite may use the term against a Christian or Jew (and perhaps even vice versa!). Regimes that do not reflect a 'correct' theocratic bent, or have secular components -- such as women not being required in Iraq to wear a burqa -- can lead to misuse of the term. In the Middle East alphabet soup of labels and descriptions, 'atheist' means different things to different speakers. A 'secularist' -- or an individual accused of being one -- can easily be branded an 'atheist' without much need for further explanation..."

09-20-2002, 03:13 PM	#17
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	FWIW, Saddam is an atheist (other than viewing himself as a god ) [ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

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09-14-2002, 03:03 PM	#11
sighhswolf Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Charlotte,NC USA Posts: 379	David, You should expect nothing else considering the fact that the most venerated of all the gods mankind has invented are for the most part gods of war, and storms, and vengence. It appears that almost every culture, civilization has elevated their mythological warrior gods to the highest position. Take for example the Judeo/Christian god Jehovah. A storm god, a god of war death and destruction, a vengeful god who maintains his position through intimidation and the fear of his terrible retribution. A god who supplied his earthly warriors with the use of a terrible weapon of mass destruction. A weapon given to his chosen people that no army could stand against, an indefeatable totally destructive force contained and given to the ancient Hebrews for the express purpose of wiping out any and all opposition to his people and his will. And along with the weapon, this war god gives his earthly generals battle plans to assure the success of their campaigns. Wolf

09-14-2002, 03:10 PM	#12
ashibaka Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cloudy Water Posts: 443	Let's simplify-- Religion may not start wars, but religion gets people to fight wars. True enough?

09-14-2002, 03:19 PM	#14
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Sighhswolf, ashibaka, well made points. God is at his most powerful when he is used to punish his follower's enemies. David

09-20-2002, 03:13 PM	#18
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Being a history and Civil War buff,I want to add my thoughts on whether that war involved god and religion. I say it did very much. Us atheists don't like to face it, but the USA from its inception, had a vision of itself as being god's chosen nation. In the mid-nineteenth century this idea was very strong. Thus my points about the Civil War: The North fought to destroy the heretical south who were splitting god's chosen nation. The South fought to recreate god's chosen nation in the southern states because the heretical Yankees had turned it to sin. The southerners actually accused the North of "free love", avarice and catholicism. Oh yes, the abolitionists. They were fanatically religious. In Kansas and Missouri they killed slave owners with a fervor only the religious can have. In response the South justified slavery on biblical terms and they too killed with reckless abandon in Kansas and Missouri. I see the US Civil War as very religious. How else could such killing occur. Read about the deaths in Civil War battles, it is utterly horrid.

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