Vicar Philip

My wife insisted I tell her every gory detail of our talk, but I didn't tell her all. I probably told her too much the way it was, but I guess we'll find out tomorrow night.

Last night we kind of got into it again, whereupon she told me she believed in every word in the bible as literally true. I couldn't help it; I bit my tongue, but I still made some disparaging remarks about this particular belief of hers. I have apologized, but I feel like we're going to have this 400 lb. ogre sitting next to us forever.

I have to concentrate on her willingness to let me have my beliefs for now, reluctant as she may be, and hope things get better with more time. She still says she can't stay married to an atheist forever. I hope I can dissuade her.

Proxima Centauri

I wouldn't try and teach the kids too much atheism and free thought at one go. The whole family is still under stress adjusting to your becoming a free thinker.
If your eldest son or other kids have doubts about Christianity it will help them a great deal to discuss this with you. I struggled alone with religious doubts as a ten year old and as a thirteen year old. It is diffifcult at that age.
At the moment I suggest you teach the kids science, teach them critical thinking relating to non religious topics.
If the kids ask questions about science, religion or anything else try to answer truthfully. Try not to annoy the wife with your answers (perhaps impossible). :banghead:
Teach the kids more later when the family has adjusted.

Proxima Centauri

She's free to twist her words and change her promises whenever she likes. You are expected to be truthful and keep promises at all times. :banghead: The times when things get better seem to be the times when you have stood up for yourself a bit. Why do you apologize so much? She has a great deal which she should apologize for and doesn't.

Again she says she can't stay married to an atheist for ever. Something similar happened before. You promised to go to church the following Sunday. She was nice for a few days. After you had been to church once she restarted trouble. This time she let you go to the new Unitarian Church twice before showing that she doesn't really accept your atheism.

Here's a quote from Undercurrent in a different thread. I think its relevant to your wife.
Try and keep your responses controlled even it she's yelling.
I think its worth carrying on at the Unitarian Church because your wife may learn attitudes which are less fundy and more liberal there. I hope last night's argument was a temporary worsening. You can't easily be cold and withdrawn this time as you are due to see the pastor tomorrow. Normally if your wife rows with you you can be a bit withdrawn for some time afterwards to discourage her.

Godless Dave

This is my big worry about the Vic's present circumstances. After meeting with the pastor herself Vic's wife might decide he's not Christian enough and run to the fundies, who will be happy to confirm her suspicions about "liberal" theology.

jj

The fact that she keeps telling you this bothers me. Either she is in over her head, and will never surface, or this is cynical manipulation of the worst order.

All of the threats, etc, do not sound like Christianity to me, to be honest, they sound like "I'm going to make you do it my way".

Please do go to the visit with the vicar, but I'll say it again, keep a chain of evidence. The guitar, the threats, etc, keep it all, and I am so sorry to say this, but I think it's past due time to talk to a laywer, NOT TO FILE ANYTHING, just to find out what you have to keep as evidence if she does file, make accusations, or anything of the like so that you can show what's really happened.

Yes, I keep telling you to protect yourself. No, it's not my personal experience, but yes, it is my experience with some other folks I've known in my life, and it was painful, really annoying, and quite some other negative things, and that on the self-identified theist's part. I'm afraid I can't really say more.

Proxima Centauri

Please get that tape recorder I keep mentioning. Once you've got useful tapes store them somewhere where 'Her Ladyship', your wife can't get at them. A bank deposit looks good.

Albion

This sounds like a bad case of mixed messages. She can't hold the simultaneous opinions that she's prepared to accept your right to have your own beliefs and that she can't stay married to an atheist forever, and expect to be taken seriously. They're mutaually exclusive opinions. She's still acting as if you're going through an annoying phase and that sooner or later (the former if you know what's good for you) you'll snap out of it. As long as her opinions are being reinforced by her fundamentalist friends and relatives, it's not going to end, especially given her apparent wide streak of control freakery. If she finds out that this pastor doesn't have the same attitude to Jesus and the Bible that she does, she'll just insist on finding one who does. She wants to bring you back to Jesus, and that's more important to her than trivial little matters about you making up your own mind about your faith or lack thereof. I do wonder what she WOULD do if faced with the reality of marriage to an atheist or divorce. I hope it doesn't come to that point, but I do wonder how much of this is bluffing.

Vicar Philip

Yeah, I know there's some subtle and not-so-subtle manipulation going on here, but tomorrow night the proof's in the pudding.

She made the comment that she wondered if the pastor and myself were just going to sit there and ridicule her belief in the bible. She didn't see any value in a meeting like that. I suppose she felt that way because I had just given her a raft of shit for telling me she believed 100% in every word in that goddamn book. Literally true. I almost choked with fury.

Then she resorts to the "You must think I'm really stupid to believe in god and the bible." comment. Somehow, in every single one of our fights, she very carefully and deliberately inserts the ol' "you think I'm stupid, you think you're so smart" bullshit. I get very tired of that. Yes, I went to college; she struggled through high school. That she thinks I somehow "lord" over her with my "knowledge" absolutely infuriates me. No defense I come up with ever matters. She's right, no two ways about it.

I'll stop for now. I'll let you guys know how tomorrow night goes as soon as I can. Should be interesting.

brighid

Vicar,

You wife sounds very insecure as a person, a Christian and as a wife by the self-deprecating comments she is making. She really does have a problem with deflecting her self-doubt and poor self-image onto you. She is the one who feels YOU are smarter then she is, and if you come to a conclusion different from hers that you must in turn feels that you are indeed smarter! She really is projecting her own feelings of inadequacy onto you, if that helps at all. Many people (including myself in certain discussions) have a difficult time separating their personal feelings (and therefore the feeling of being personally attacked) from an argument. I also think, with regard to the case of her Christian belief that she appears to have many of the same doubts you do and she resents you for bringing those to the surface. If her husband is an atheist it’s much more difficult to ignore any questions or doubts she may be having. She may also resent the fact that she was originally the skeptic, through your influence she convinced herself into believing and now you are the skeptic … so lah dee dah! It must also be frightening to her because she has deeply entrenched her self-identity and communal relationships around the Church. This isn’t to excuse her horribly manipulative, childish behavior but I firmly feel that it is important to understand the behavior so solutions can be found.

Personally, there is only so much I can handle of fragile, insecure people who do destructive things to sabotage relationships in order to confirm their fears. I think she really needs to demonize you, push you away and attempt to destroy this relationship (at least at this point) so she can say “see … I told you so” and thereby have an excuse to cling more tightly to her faith and self-image.

I really, really think your wife needs a lot of personal, one on one counseling, regardless of the course of your marriage. Her behaviors speak very loudly and clearly about the dysfunctional relationship she has with herself. I do hope she is able to see her reactions are symptomatic of a problem NOT at all related to your newfound atheism, but to her deepest insecurities and fears. I think you can quell the storm that has been going on, but these problems have continued to resurface because of her.

Otherwise, I fear for the future of your marriage and family. I would also suggest (as has been done before) individual for you, and/or family/marriage counseling. Perhaps this pastor can recommend good therapists for all.

Brighid

seebs

Vicar, after reading the last few stories, and thinking about them, I've figured out what's *really* bugging your wife. It's gotta be the constant buzzing sound of the neon sign mounted to her head which says "BIPOLAR" in 3' tall letters.