Amos

Ah, I see what you mean now. If you name one that is greater we will be glad to go under its wings. As it stand now, all raods lead to Rome. In case you wonder about the East West split, that was done for good reason. We have the filioque and they do not. It makes us much more aggressive and since we had the geographics in our favor we could afford to take the risk. With agression comes higher peaks and lower valleys and you people only seem to only see the valleys. Well I'd say that that is your problem because we faught the Reformation to avoid this and millions have died because of that one. So now you should not be crying when you see that you were wrong after all.

Amos

Not an evasion at all. I am not familiar with it and your agrument is second hand. My objection to this is that I do not like to wallow in second hand oats.

Radorth

Amos, you really must come down from the lake on occasion, or have a paper delivered by air.

You might visit a Protestant church sometime as well. I know one which is rather busy building houses near Tijuana. Kinda reminds you of Jimmy Carter pounding nails, eh?

Rad

Amos

I know about that one. You think there is any guilt involved here since the contrast is the persuader?

The Naked Mage

Bill Gates is also exceedingly rich, but unlike the Catholic Church, which God rains gold coins upon on a bi-annual basis, he found his fortune through what many of us might consider "theft".[/IRONY]

Although the phrase "God helps those who helps themselves" is not actually found anywhere in the Bible, it would be fitting to see it chiseled on Jesus' chest on every cross in every Catholic church in the world.

Yes. At least, those of you who we don't think are totally batshit.

Sabine Grant

AMOS : Incorporation is damage control.... damage caused by both catholic and protestant colonialism and mercantilism.

It is only honest to recognize those facts. One can recognize those facts and separate them from how one relates PERSONALY to God.

Have you reflected on what I posted earlier?

I do not believe that any organized religion structure can take one individual back to his ancestry. Especialy as the same institutions have crippled that ancestry. Culture implicates the presence of religions and myths. By forcing the christian agenda on other cultures, those institutions denied the right for those other religions and myths to exist. They erradicated the very individuality of other cultures. Native American tribes and African tribes were not given any choice....they were oppressed and persecuted to abide to the religious dogma represented by those institutions. Their social structure was attacked and undermined to destabilize their identity.

To show up centuries later with the pretense that we are here to help them be incorporated into the very system which wounded them IMO is very cohercive.

Here is the problem with organized religion... It takes a man such as yourself and controls how you will relate to God. It tells you how God is and what He approves of. It deprives you of any objective and critical thinking to the point of you not wanting to know about historical facts. It absorbs your mind operating like the "Borg" .... " you will be assimilated". The thinking becomes collective rather than individual. It makes you accept and support facts that are destructive to other human beings.

Examining history is your sole salvation from being assimilated and endoctrinated by any dogma.

Again it should not jeopardize your personal faith in God. And what should be the essence of your faith? What is dictated to you and implanted in your mind by any institution called The Church or your personal relationship with God?

Are we believing in the same God Amos? I have come to wonder if we do.

Amos

Two questions come to mind. Did I ever concede or tell you that I was a believer? and how can a freethinker be a believer? Ever though of that or are you trying to be both and are therefore split down the middle with one leg in heaven and one leg on earth.

All I do here is defend the postition of the Catholic Church as "the bride of the lamb."

Sabine Grant

Good evening Amos...forgive my confusion but the concept of any church " being the bride of the Lamb" implies some degree of acceptance of christian theology.

Please clarify your position... are you a catholic who does not believe in God ? or are you a catholic who believes in God? I have never met a catholic who does not believe in God so I am quite puzzled.

My thoughts are relatively free Amos. What I challenge here is any kind of organized religion which promotes institutions led by a particular and defined dogma. My point was that one can nurture faith without being led by dogma.

Everything you have presented so far points to your abiding to catholic dogma and theology. Am I reading you correctly? If not please clarify.

As far as having one foot on earth, I certainly hope that both of my feet are on earth since I consider that what is to be accomplished is now not in eternity. Eternity IMO is the time to rest in God's presence. If I kept my mind focused on eternity now, I might not be aware of what my purpose is here and now. It might be what leads so many believers to a state of apathy when it comes to what is needed of them now as contributors to humanity.

To go back to history... I think some valid arguments have been presented to you in terms of the crimes committed against humanity by various religious institutions including the catholic church. The argument I present to you is that such institutions cannot claim the title of " bride of the Lamb" unless you consider those institutions to have been right and justified in perpetuating those crimes. Do you consider those crimes to have been justified?

Please define who or what is " the Lamb". I am trying to comprehend your arguments but I need to have a better definition of what you mean.

Amos

Oh my God, here we go again. Sabine, there is no such thing as Christian theology. There is Catholic theology and protestant theology in Christendom.

But if you have faith you must have doubt because faith cannot be conceived to exist without doubt and if you are a Christian after the manner of Jesus of Nazareth you can't have either faith or doubt because otherwise doubters could go to heaven. If doubters could go to heaven atheist could go to heaven and we sure would not want that, would we now (just apply the slippery slope).

Jesus ascended into heaven when Thomas became convinced whereby all doubt was removed. So then, heaven can only begin when both faith and doubt have found its end in understanding=knowledge frees.

Not necessarily abiding but defending.

Eternity is here and now or we mortals could not extract life from it. Only a change of vision is required to make it become a reality.

Purpose? Shakespeare would have said the to be of purpose we must be of no purpose (deduced from "to be or not to be)." In the bible we read that I must decrease while God must increase. The end of this is non existance of the I.Wrong opinion has always been the cause of war and believers may or may not have correct opinion. This is based on the gnostic who knows while the agnostic admids that he does not know. In between these two is the believer with the atheist as impoverished and the mystic as enriched believer. The Catholic church is inspired and therefore gnostic. As such is she the bride of the lamb and the woman who is in charge of her own destiny wherefore we crowned Mary queen of heaven and earth (the Coronation is exclusively Catholic but protestants haven't figured this out yet).

I have to run but will be happy to return to this.

Sabine Grant

Amos... when you get back...please do answer that question which was left unanswered from my previous inquiry. Merci!