Freethought & Rationalism Archive

isaac42 · 01-11-2002, 02:42 PM

In conversation with a Christian at lunch, two topics emerged.

Topic one: did Jesus give his authority to Peter, or to any of the disciples? I seem to recall that, somewhere in the NT, he says, "I'm off to Heaven. You guys carry on in my name." I can't find it, though.

Topic two: when and how was the Bible codified? Specifically, how were the four canonical Gospels chosen, and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Bible? I had thought that it was done at the first Council of Nicaea, but I can't verify it.

Isaac

Toto · 01-11-2002, 03:45 PM

On topic 2, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html" target="_blank">The Formation of the New Testament Canon</a> by Richard Carrier.

Toto · 01-11-2002, 09:25 PM

On topic 1, Matthew 16:28 is where Jesus renames Simon as "Peter" and says "upon this rock I will build my church".

from <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1578849519/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Legend of St. Peter</a> by Arthur Drews:

Quote:

This passage has been subjected to the most varied explanations. The Roman Catholic Church bases its doctrine of the so-called primacy of Peter upon it -- the foundation of its legal claim to authority not just over other denominations, but over souls as well. Protestant critics, on the other hand, are in general agreement that the passage is an interpolation expressing the view of a later period, that it represents an ecclesiatical bid for power, and that the alleged words placed in the mouth of the "historical" Jesus are manifestly impossible.

Drews goes on to point out that in the Gospels Jesus is portrayed as expecting the end of the world before his own generation had died out, so there would be no point to founding a church; and that in other places in the Gospels, Jesus appears to grant authority to all his disciples (Matt 18:18).

Furthermore, in the book of Acts, Peter is never depicted as a leader in the church, but as subordinate to James. In Paul's letters, Peter is one of the "pillars" of the Jerusalem church along with James and John, but is not portrayed as a strong leader. (This is assuming that it is the same Peter, which is not absolutely certain.)

(Note: Drews is a German philosopher and the author of the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921904/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Christ Myth</a>, published about 1910, which argues that Jesus was not a historical figure.)

isaac42 · 01-12-2002, 05:46 AM

Thanks, Toto. The Matthew 18:18 was what I was looking for, at least in part. I haven't had time to read the Carrier article yet, but I'm sure it will be helpful.

Isaac

John the Atheist · 01-12-2002, 06:08 AM

Topic two: when and how was the Bible codified? Specifically, how were the four canonical Gospels chosen, and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Bible? I had thought that it was done at the first Council of Nicaea, but I can't verify it.
Isaac

Irenaeus was the first to argue for four gospels. He argued for four because there were four winds, and were four zones and it needed four pillars, and as Robert Ingersoll once noted, might as well add because a donkey has four legs too. Irenaeus further argued in his works (Against Heresies) that there “were four principal covenants given to the human race: One prior to the deluge, under Adam; the second, that after the deluge, Under Noah; the third, the giving of the law, under Moses; the fourth, that which renovates man...” Contrary to how the four gospels end, however, Irenaeus says it is not true that Jesus died such an early death and had such a brief career but lived to be a an old man.

No one knows really why they picked these particular four, and even the Catholic ency will say as much. But the real reasons why modern scholars say there were four had to do with the four principal churches of which each had their favorite Gospel out of the very many to pick from.

Matthew at Jerusalem
Mark at Rome
Luke at Antioch
John at Ephesus

John

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: John the Atheist ]</p>

isaac42 · 01-12-2002, 04:29 PM

A third topic: the alleged martyrdom of the apostles.

This is frequently brought up by Christians as evidence for the truth of Christianity. I usually reply that if willingness to die for ones beliefs is evidence for their veracity, then the events of 11 September prove that Islam is the true faith.

Anyway, I'm sure that there is at least one article on the deaths of the apostles in the library, but, without the search function, I haven't been able to find any. More help, please?

Isaac

Toto · 01-13-2002, 10:29 PM

You can find articles in the library through Google (sometimes better than through the search function.) I found this, in Farrell Till's skeptical review:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/4/4front97.html" target="_blank">How Did the Apostles Die?</a>

01-11-2002, 02:42 PM	#1
isaac42 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Corvallis, OR USA Posts: 216	Two Topics In conversation with a Christian at lunch, two topics emerged. Topic one: did Jesus give his authority to Peter, or to any of the disciples? I seem to recall that, somewhere in the NT, he says, "I'm off to Heaven. You guys carry on in my name." I can't find it, though. Topic two: when and how was the Bible codified? Specifically, how were the four canonical Gospels chosen, and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Bible? I had thought that it was done at the first Council of Nicaea, but I can't verify it. Isaac

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01-11-2002, 03:45 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	On topic 2, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html" target="_blank">The Formation of the New Testament Canon</a> by Richard Carrier.

01-12-2002, 05:46 AM	#4
isaac42 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Corvallis, OR USA Posts: 216	Thanks, Toto. The Matthew 18:18 was what I was looking for, at least in part. I haven't had time to read the Carrier article yet, but I'm sure it will be helpful. Isaac

01-12-2002, 06:08 AM	#5
John the Atheist Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: North Texas Posts: 42	Topic two: when and how was the Bible codified? Specifically, how were the four canonical Gospels chosen, and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Bible? I had thought that it was done at the first Council of Nicaea, but I can't verify it. Isaac Irenaeus was the first to argue for four gospels. He argued for four because there were four winds, and were four zones and it needed four pillars, and as Robert Ingersoll once noted, might as well add because a donkey has four legs too. Irenaeus further argued in his works (Against Heresies) that there “were four principal covenants given to the human race: One prior to the deluge, under Adam; the second, that after the deluge, Under Noah; the third, the giving of the law, under Moses; the fourth, that which renovates man...” Contrary to how the four gospels end, however, Irenaeus says it is not true that Jesus died such an early death and had such a brief career but lived to be a an old man. No one knows really why they picked these particular four, and even the Catholic ency will say as much. But the real reasons why modern scholars say there were four had to do with the four principal churches of which each had their favorite Gospel out of the very many to pick from. Matthew at Jerusalem Mark at Rome Luke at Antioch John at Ephesus John [ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: John the Atheist ]</p>

01-12-2002, 04:29 PM	#6
isaac42 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Corvallis, OR USA Posts: 216	A third topic: the alleged martyrdom of the apostles. This is frequently brought up by Christians as evidence for the truth of Christianity. I usually reply that if willingness to die for ones beliefs is evidence for their veracity, then the events of 11 September prove that Islam is the true faith. Anyway, I'm sure that there is at least one article on the deaths of the apostles in the library, but, without the search function, I haven't been able to find any. More help, please? Isaac

01-13-2002, 10:29 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You can find articles in the library through Google (sometimes better than through the search function.) I found this, in Farrell Till's skeptical review: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/4/4front97.html" target="_blank">How Did the Apostles Die?</a>

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