pseudobug

I'm kind of new in the game of debating cretins. What I started out doing was to try and patiently explain what hypotheses are and how they are tested, modified and rejected based upon empirical evidence. I've tried to explain the difference between faith and belief versus scientific inferences derived from theories supported by evidence.

I tried all of these things because I work with rational, intelligent people for the most part. I haven't bumped into a living, breathing cretin in years that I am aware held such a misquided view of science. Sadly, I've found that there is no reaching the cyber-cretins I've recently encountered.

Subsequently, our debates morphed into this "10,000 fallacies and lies of evolution" attack scenario from my cretin debate opponents. I, of course, tried for a while to diligently answer questions and provide sources for background info supporting my arguments in response to their questions.

It didn't work. Not one was convinced. I was meet by an unending stream of laughable links from trueorigins and AIG that were full of blatant quotes taken out of context, strawman arguments, appeals to authority and ad hominem attacks.

Yesterday, I changed tactics. Instead of explanations in defense of challanges to well-supported evidence for evolution, I started asking for evidence supporting buybull creation.

The result--silence.

Then I started egging them on about it--pleading for a single, supportive bit of evidence demonstrating that ANYTHING in the buybull creation account had any credible, supportive data backing the myth. Just one SINGLE MORSEL of data.

What an amazing transformation! It was like yanking on a skunk's tail. "God did this", "god said that", "you'll burn in hell you atheist", "you'll find out that we are right when judgement day comes", "I'll be in paradise and you'll be doing the hot-coal tango with Lucifer" etc., etc.

But not one, logical shred of evidence was uttered in response to my question.

Conclusion: Cretins are not the sharpest tools in the shed and can be vicious when provoked.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Oolon Colluphid ]</p>

Quetzal

It's even more fun to challenge the so-called "scientific creationists" to provide a Theory of Creationism to stand against the Theory of Evolution. Something that is falsifiable, has predictive value, testable - you know, scientific. The silence is thunderous.

CodeMason

A creationist has tried to do this: <a href="http://trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp" target="_blank">http://trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp</a>

On a somewhat related note, I'm working on a site that debunks all of TrueOrigin. I've already written several articles, and got my spiffy design down. Anyone care to help?

Oolon Colluphid

Pseudobug, asking for stuff that supports their position does work wonders! But there are significant tidbits of biology that can similarly be used. I’ve had success (at least, no replies) with unintelligent bits of design, and with deactivated genes for making stuff that creatures aren’t supposed to have ever had (eg the <a href="http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Hampe_experiment.htm" target="_blank">Hampé experiment</a> and <a href="http://www.devbio.com/chap06/link0601.shtml" target="_blank">Kollar and Fisher experiment</a>). Cretinists are so good at throwing out challenges that require a lecture on the subject to explain why their claim is crap, that it’s great to have small snippets to throw back at them.

If you don’t mind, I’ve changed ‘cretins’ to ‘creationists’ in your title. Thread titles at least should be pretty circumspect: we don’t want to give creationists the idea we’ve pre-judged them and their claims! (Remember that each one thinks we’ve never heard their knock-down arguments before .) If you feel strongly about it, I guess you can change back, but I’d prefer not, up to you.

Cheers, Oolon

Oolon Colluphid

Sounds great CodeMason! Ask and ye shall receive... feel free to raid any bits I've mentioned... and what areas do you need help with?

Cheers, Oolon

CodeMason

Oh, all I really need is some guest writers to lower the workload a bit...

Dr.GH

Interesting example of co-evolution. Trueorigin was built to refute Talkorigin. Now CodeMason responds in turn. I like it

pseudobug

Ooloon Collophid:

I have no problem with the edit at all. I should try to be nicer towards those with other points of view--even if their points of view are somewhat misquided.

It gets difficult being respectful, though, even when threats of eternal suffering in the midst of non-existent, hot, subterranean places are wished upon you.

BTW, thanks for the two links. Reminds me of suffering through seminar presentations on some of Nüsslein-Volhard, Wieschaus papers on hox genes in Drosophila as a second semester Master's student. THe evil professor who taught the class had us each prepare to do an oral presentation on a paper each week. He chose the presenter by picking the names out of a hat.

It was a brutal and humbling experience.

OrderedChaos

So um, inbetween all of the layers of "evolutionists are liars and idiots who say there isn't a theory when there really is," just exactly where was the theory?

I would like to help, but right now I am having midterms and don't really have the time. After they are over I might be up for writing an article or two.

MarcoPolo

But that's the best part. Being able to remain respectful without resorting to those tactics.

Here's an experiment for you (for everyone!). Go to a creationist board and start debating them, respectfully; no sarcasm, no inuendos, no cheap shots... then when they start doing those things, just copy the page and post it here. Heck, maybe someone can start a site showing how 'peaceful','Christ-like', 'Christians' react when their beliefs are questioned.

That would be a hoot to read.