Shivershot

Sorry magus55, but the most apropriate thing that comes to mind while reading your mindless drivel is Tool's song Opiate from the Opiate EP:

"Choices always were a problem for you. What you need is someone strong to guide you. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow, what you need is someone strong to use you.. like me, like me. If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Don't judge or question.You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Let me lay my holy hand upon you. My Gods will becomes me. When he speaks out, he speaks through me. He has needs like I do. We both want to rape you. Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life. Open my eyes and blind me with your light and your lies."

And finally my own words... "baaaaa baaaaa." I'm getting a huge chuckle out of you saying in one sentence that god is infinite and unknowable, then in another you go on to define what god is, does, or likes... sorry, doesn't work that way. Are you trying to define a "part" of something that is infinite and unknowable? God's unknowable, yet the buybull defines him... Mere human words written in text can define that which is beyond human comprehension. Fascinating. Quit wasting your time and ours... Tell it to some broken individuals willing to believe you and in need of paternal guidance.

In addition, there is no "choice" where none exists. You act as though those who have come to accept atheism or agnosticism do so because they have a choice. I would argue the exact opposite. We live lives not sought and are simply being honest to ourselves, regardless of the hostile, mean-spirited attempts at salvation.

Jack the Bodiless

Magus55:

If God is so great, then I'd like to know why my morals are BETTER than God's.

I am more just. Given the power, I would act against wrongdoers immediately. Every would-be terrorist would find himself instantly teleported to Antarctica with no thermal underwear.

I am more merciful. I don't really care if people deny my existence, but if I had God's powers and decided that people shouldn't be kept ignorant of that, I would reveal myself. If this would upset them too much, then I'll let them find out in their own time, even after death. I would never turn my back on them and condemn them to an eternity of torment.

I am better than God.

Why is that?

Stephen T-B

Dear Magus55, I would very much appreciate your answer to this question : are you able to believe in the unbelievable by sheer will power? In other words, can you CHOOSE to believe in something?
If I told you "I shall give you $5m dollars if you believe I am 18 feet tall and have five arms," would you be able to do that?
(I mean REALLY believe it; actually be certain in your mind that I am 18 feet tall and have five ams, rather than merely say "yeh, sure I believe it.")

Magus55

Funny, the exact attitude that Satan had. His pride took over and he couldn't stand the thought of having to humble himself before God. He wanted to be worshipped and thought he could do a better job. So he rebelled and thats the whole reason Hell was created. Amazing how things don't change in some 10,000 years.

You are not better than God, you just think by your miniscule perception you are and your pride can't get you to humble yourself. Such is the sadness of sin.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
Funny, the exact attitude that Satan had. His pride took over and he couldn't stand the thought of having to humble himself before God.

Or maybe he thought that someone who would commit genocide and murder children wasn't worth serving?

I can understand that. I don't know about you, but I'm not really fond of anyone who murders little kids.

Amazing how things don't change in some 10,000 years.

If "things" haven't changed in "10,000" years, all I can say is, god's doing a piss-poor job.

You are not better than God, you just think by your miniscule perception you are and your pride can't get you to humble yourself.

And by your "miniscule perception", it's OK to love a child-killer?

Such is the sadness of sin.

Excuse me while I weep big tears.

Stephen T-B

OK Magus - so you can't, by sheer will power, believe I am 18ft tall and have five arms.
Would this help:
"To whom it may concern. Stephen T-B is 18ft tall and has five arms"?

Magus55

So you would have rathered those children grow up, reject God and end up in Hell than die quickly and spend eternity in Heaven? And you question God's morals.

God did a great job - we did a crappy job obeying him. Well when you see God does exist and Jesus returns - you won't be able to claim he didn't give you a choice. Your attitude clearly shows you want to be separated from Him. So why do you have such a problem with Hell? You apparently would hate God if he turns out to be real - Hell is where you'd rather go since you don't want to be with Him.

So stop complaining about it - He gave you a choice and you made it.

MrDarwin

Yes, you keep saying that. But try this on for size: if God is an infinite being, and if God is a merciful and a forgiving being, then God's mercy and capacity for forgiveness are also be infinite. Thus our opportunity for salvation is likewise infinite. Magus, what makes this any less valid or less true than your version?

God clearly doesn't want us to be perfect, righteous, or holy, or presumably he would have created us that way. But the issue you keep avoiding is that if we aren't perfect, righteous, or holy, it's because God created us not to be. So yes, I do think it seems a wee bit unfair for God to punish we uncomprehending, imperfect, finite humans for being exactly what he created us to be. Now, am I judging God? Not one bit, first because I'm still not convinced this God you describe exists in the first place, and secondly and more importantly because what I'm judging is your description of God.

But God isn't telling us anything, you keep telling us these things. And if God is as incomprehensible as you tell us, why should we think you have any comprehension of God's attributes and will? I simply don't understand why you keep limiting or restricting what God supposedly can or cannot, or will or will not, do.

Jack the Bodiless

This does not appear to be even remotely relevant to my post. I'm saying that I am more just than god, more merciful than God, and so forth. This is based on how God is portrayed in the Bible and in Christian tradition. This is nothing do do with not being able to "stand the thought of having to humble myself".
Satan honestly thought he would be a more benevolent ruler than God, a better custodian of humanity? I've heard this from Luciferans, but never from a professed Christian before! You're saying Satan was NOT motivated by malice?
How can you possibly KNOW that I am not better than God?

You have said yourself that God is beyond our understanding. If this is so, and it means that I can't declare myself to be "better" than him, then nor can you declare that I am inferior to him in a moral sense.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
So you would have rathered those children grow up, reject God and end up in Hell than die quickly and spend eternity in Heaven?

Could you even give me a chance to address the issue before you make assumptions?

And you question God's morals.

I question your ability to interact with people, that's for sure. Try this, Magus. Ask a question and allow me to answer it. Don't guess what my answer will be. Chances are, you are not that good at mind-reading.

Now, to answer your question, I would rather he not have killed them, period. Did he have to drown and suffocate them? Couldn't he painlessly separate their souls from their bodies? And what about their memories of their families - seeing their parents die, watching bloated bodies floating by, seeing landslides of mud? Did he brainwash them so that they remembered none of these?

God did a great job

Yes, a great job of genocide, according to the bible.

we did a crappy job obeying him.

You have restored my faith in humanity. For that I thank you.

Well when you see God does exist and Jesus returns

He hasn't returned for over two thousand years, so I have no reason to believe I'll ever see this happening that's been "any day now" since he left.

- you won't be able to claim he didn't give you a choice.

Did I ever say I would?

Your attitude clearly shows you want to be separated from Him. So why do you have such a problem with Hell?

Where did I say I had a problem with it? Hell would be preferable to the company of the butcher-god you describe. I have a problem with the fairness of the system, but not with hell per se.

You apparently would hate God if he turns out to be real - Hell is where you'd rather go since you don't want to be with Him.

If a god exists and he is exactly like the genocidal murderer described in the bible, why would I want to be with him? I don't know about you, but I don't like anyone who kills children.

So stop complaining about it - He gave you a choice and you made it.

Who's complaining? I'm debating an issue with you - if you think that's complaining, then you're complaining too. So stop complaining about it, Magus55 - He gave you a choice and you ended up here!