Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Demigawd · 03-24-2003, 06:54 PM

I've been contemplating the interplay of belief and dogma lately, and one thing I keep returning to is the following scenario: taking a child or an emotionally-vulnerable adult, having or winning the person's trust, and then saying "this book (religion) is true. All other books (religions) are fiction. Trust what's in this book (religion) and you will be rewarded. If not here on Earth, then in the Afterlife (the continuation of your conscious, and subject to distress, awareness)."

Add the concept of hell (eternal torment), and that's a powerful brainwash.

How is brainwashing of any stripe regarded ethically or morally? If you have trouble understanding what brainwash means, please remember it's something that, from your point of view, happens only to other people.

BioBeing · 03-24-2003, 07:59 PM

Love your definition of brainwashing

Didn't Hitler say something like "give me your children for 5 years, and I will have then for life"? Meaning, as I understand it, he would brainwash them into believing his propaganda. I have always believed that there is probably more than just a hint of truth in that. I have two young children, and they are very susceptible to that kind of suggestion. To make sure they are properly screwed up, my wife takes them to Church, and I read about Dinosaurs to them. We were talking tonight of the satelite images that show the site of the probable asteroid impact that wiped them out 65 million years ago. In this way, I think my children will have some of the social character of church, while still being able to form their own opinions, and have a good sound knowledgebase. Plus my wife (only kinda religous) plus her Ma and Pa (very religous) are happy to get the kids to church, and I have time to do some chores around the house... (hey - I live in the bible belt. I do what I can).

El_Hober · 03-24-2003, 08:10 PM

brainwashing is brainwashing.

people should be given all the information, and allowed to draw their own conclusions.

Bill Snedden · 03-24-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Didn't Hitler say something like "give me your children for 5 years, and I will have then for life"?

Actually, I believe it was the Jesuits: "give me a child by the age of five and I'll give you a Catholic for life."

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Amie · 03-24-2003, 08:47 PM

People tend to teach their children what they themselves believe.

So do any of you atheists teach your children that "God does not exist"? Do any of you teach your children that God/Jesus/whatever is just "an enduring myth"? would you condsider that to be brainwashing as well?

El Hober
I agree people should be given all the information and allowed to draw their own conclusions

Illithid · 03-24-2003, 09:46 PM

Well, I'm not browbeating him with "religion is hoakum". He doesn't recite "All gods are myths" every day. Actually, I haven't talked about religion much with my son, who is six. We've simply been truthful with him about everything. So far, we've only gotten into Santa Claus as being a story, a game that adults play with children, and that some kids are told it's true and he shouldn't "spoil their fun" by telling them it isn't.

I also told him about our invisible dog, Sparky. Sparky is very friendly to everyone except him. Sparky doesn't like to be in the same room with Taylor. Sparky is very good at hiding, and can move so fast Taylor can't see him. Sparky is very quiet, never barks at all. Etc.

It didn't take him very long (he was about 3) to tell me to quit being silly, there was no Sparky. I found out later that he had been playing along with the joke for a week before he told me.

Plus, being possessed of a Biology BS, and being a longtime ameteur student of paleontology, cosmology, and history, I am well qualified to answer all the annoying child's questions. The strain is coming up with a way to tell him that he can understand and find interesting. We've done dinosaurs and their extinction, and their living relatives, and evolution, geological ages, the size and composition of the galaxy, ET life/intelligence (here, the answer is "I don't know", qualified with a simplified Drake equation). Types and formation of rocks and fossils. Plant and animal reproduction. Continental drift. Various things, as he brings them up.

I don't tell him he _has_ to believe all this, of course. I don't have to. The things I teach my son have evidence behind them.

BioBeing · 03-24-2003, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
People tend to teach their children what they themselves believe.

So do any of you atheists teach your children that "God does not exist"? Do any of you teach your children that God/Jesus/whatever is just "an enduring myth"? would you condsider that to be brainwashing as well?

El Hober
I agree people should be given all the information and allowed to draw their own conclusions

When my kids (eldest currently 3.5) ask (either about God or Santa), I will tell them what I believe. I will *try* to not force any belief on either of them...

And Bill - Hitler, Jesuits... what is the difference?

Jamie_L · 03-25-2003, 05:53 AM

This is a tough topic. One the one hand, I do sympathize that it is saddening that young children should be taught to base their whole lives on something that isn't true.

On the other hand, as a parent, I understand the strong desire to teach my children what is true. Or, to be more specific, what I believe is true.

A theist believes, in their heart of hearts, that what they believe is the truth about the world. As parents, theists feel, just as atheist parents do, that it is their duty, their obligation, their job as parents, to teach their children the truth. Just as an atheist would cringe at the thought of telling their child some religion is true, and theist will cringe at the notion of teach their childrent that what they believe is false.

Asking a theist to tell their child that their religion may or may not be true is like asking anyone to tell their children that drinking the cleaners stored under the sink may or may not hurt them. It's asking someone to say things they think aren't true, and think will lead to dire consequences for their children.

*shrug*

Jamie

Primordial Groove · 03-25-2003, 07:19 AM

Today I asked my 3 year old daughter if she knew what god was. Her reply was, 'no.'

It seems if there was a 'god', it would be a part of our being from birth. We would 'instinctively' know about IT, but we dont.

What we do know about any god is what is brainwashed into us at some point in life, usually at a very early age. As we get older, our 'bullshit' meters are set to high to get around...well, some of us.

Pondering a bit more, I know that all of life's processes are 'learned' with a few exceptions, such as sex and eating. If the learned aspect of religion is taken out of life's equation, are we obstructing our kids view of the 'real' world? I think not.

motorhead · 03-25-2003, 08:03 AM

Teaching god religion to young children only encourages them to magical thinking more than they already do. It also strongly impresses upon kids that they should rely on some magical being to solve their problems instead of encouraging them to face their problems themselves and come up with solutions. So, instead of encouraging a kid to think through a problem, understand its cause, and work toward a good solution, religious parents tell them to pray and expect an answer.

03-24-2003, 06:54 PM	#1
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	Children and Theism I've been contemplating the interplay of belief and dogma lately, and one thing I keep returning to is the following scenario: taking a child or an emotionally-vulnerable adult, having or winning the person's trust, and then saying "this book (religion) is true. All other books (religions) are fiction. Trust what's in this book (religion) and you will be rewarded. If not here on Earth, then in the Afterlife (the continuation of your conscious, and subject to distress, awareness)." Add the concept of hell (eternal torment), and that's a powerful brainwash. How is brainwashing of any stripe regarded ethically or morally? If you have trouble understanding what brainwash means, please remember it's something that, from your point of view, happens only to other people.

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03-24-2003, 07:59 PM	#2
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Love your definition of brainwashing Didn't Hitler say something like "give me your children for 5 years, and I will have then for life"? Meaning, as I understand it, he would brainwash them into believing his propaganda. I have always believed that there is probably more than just a hint of truth in that. I have two young children, and they are very susceptible to that kind of suggestion. To make sure they are properly screwed up, my wife takes them to Church, and I read about Dinosaurs to them. We were talking tonight of the satelite images that show the site of the probable asteroid impact that wiped them out 65 million years ago. In this way, I think my children will have some of the social character of church, while still being able to form their own opinions, and have a good sound knowledgebase. Plus my wife (only kinda religous) plus her Ma and Pa (very religous) are happy to get the kids to church, and I have time to do some chores around the house... (hey - I live in the bible belt. I do what I can).

03-24-2003, 08:10 PM	#3
El_Hober Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 31	brainwashing is brainwashing. people should be given all the information, and allowed to draw their own conclusions.

03-24-2003, 08:47 PM	#5
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	People tend to teach their children what they themselves believe. So do any of you atheists teach your children that "God does not exist"? Do any of you teach your children that God/Jesus/whatever is just "an enduring myth"? would you condsider that to be brainwashing as well? El Hober I agree people should be given all the information and allowed to draw their own conclusions

03-24-2003, 09:46 PM	#6
Illithid Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: BF, Texas Posts: 161	Well, I'm not browbeating him with "religion is hoakum". He doesn't recite "All gods are myths" every day. Actually, I haven't talked about religion much with my son, who is six. We've simply been truthful with him about everything. So far, we've only gotten into Santa Claus as being a story, a game that adults play with children, and that some kids are told it's true and he shouldn't "spoil their fun" by telling them it isn't. I also told him about our invisible dog, Sparky. Sparky is very friendly to everyone except him. Sparky doesn't like to be in the same room with Taylor. Sparky is very good at hiding, and can move so fast Taylor can't see him. Sparky is very quiet, never barks at all. Etc. It didn't take him very long (he was about 3) to tell me to quit being silly, there was no Sparky. I found out later that he had been playing along with the joke for a week before he told me. Plus, being possessed of a Biology BS, and being a longtime ameteur student of paleontology, cosmology, and history, I am well qualified to answer all the annoying child's questions. The strain is coming up with a way to tell him that he can understand and find interesting. We've done dinosaurs and their extinction, and their living relatives, and evolution, geological ages, the size and composition of the galaxy, ET life/intelligence (here, the answer is "I don't know", qualified with a simplified Drake equation). Types and formation of rocks and fossils. Plant and animal reproduction. Continental drift. Various things, as he brings them up. I don't tell him he _has_ to believe all this, of course. I don't have to. The things I teach my son have evidence behind them.

03-25-2003, 05:53 AM	#8
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	This is a tough topic. One the one hand, I do sympathize that it is saddening that young children should be taught to base their whole lives on something that isn't true. On the other hand, as a parent, I understand the strong desire to teach my children what is true. Or, to be more specific, what I believe is true. A theist believes, in their heart of hearts, that what they believe is the truth about the world. As parents, theists feel, just as atheist parents do, that it is their duty, their obligation, their job as parents, to teach their children the truth. Just as an atheist would cringe at the thought of telling their child some religion is true, and theist will cringe at the notion of teach their childrent that what they believe is false. Asking a theist to tell their child that their religion may or may not be true is like asking anyone to tell their children that drinking the cleaners stored under the sink may or may not hurt them. It's asking someone to say things they think aren't true, and think will lead to dire consequences for their children. shrug Jamie

03-25-2003, 07:19 AM	#9
Primordial Groove Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1,570	Today I asked my 3 year old daughter if she knew what god was. Her reply was, 'no.' It seems if there was a 'god', it would be a part of our being from birth. We would 'instinctively' know about IT, but we dont. What we do know about any god is what is brainwashed into us at some point in life, usually at a very early age. As we get older, our 'bullshit' meters are set to high to get around...well, some of us. Pondering a bit more, I know that all of life's processes are 'learned' with a few exceptions, such as sex and eating. If the learned aspect of religion is taken out of life's equation, are we obstructing our kids view of the 'real' world? I think not.

03-25-2003, 08:03 AM	#10
motorhead Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Land of Make Believe Posts: 781	Teaching god religion to young children only encourages them to magical thinking more than they already do. It also strongly impresses upon kids that they should rely on some magical being to solve their problems instead of encouraging them to face their problems themselves and come up with solutions. So, instead of encouraging a kid to think through a problem, understand its cause, and work toward a good solution, religious parents tell them to pray and expect an answer.

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