Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 01-31-2002, 04:53 PM

From a comment in one of Isaac Asimov's essay books (the essay "The Stars in their Courses"); he notes that the mainstream scientific viewpoint on astrology is generally that the characteristic quality of astrological lore is very like the excrement of the male bovine.

However dismissive this assessment may seem, it is abundantly supported by <a href="http://www.skepsis.no/english/subject/astrology/studies.html" target="_blank">numerous statistical studies</a>.

Outside of Gauqelin's "Mars effect", only one of them reported any positive effect, and that was likely due to a self-fulfilling-prophecy effect.

I think that such results deserve a LOT of publicity, no matter how much it makes skeptics seem like party-poopers.

01-31-2002, 05:25 PM

To those of you who know me from the ii boards, this may come as a suprise. It is certainly a humbling story to tell.

About 4 years ago, I became convinced of the authenticity of astrology (and as a result, of scads of new age style superstition). At the hands of a charismatic new age room mate, and under the influence of excessive consumption of alcohol, I was actually convinced of the truth of Astrology.

The roommate's name was Ted - hereinafter, Ted the Greek.

I became his roommate after a bad divorce (like there are any good ones). Almost his first conversation with me was a cold reading. I was a little bit impressed, but still very skeptical. Afterward, we became very close friends, and he taught me the techniques of cold reading (all the while with me convinced that I was doing legitimate astrological reading). He guessed the sun-signs of every stranger we met & taught me how to remember the successes and forget the failures. If we missed the sign, we checked the Element. If we missed both, we checked another category. If we missed there too, we checked for a cusp on something right.

I was not ignorant of mathematics or of statistics, nor was I ignorant of the scientific method. I knew the hazards of sliding standards of accuracy, and I knew the fallacy of failing to report unsucessful results. Still, I managed to remain convinced that the everyday unexamined evidence was so overwhelming, that I didn't really need to apply statistics or the scientific method to it.

That isn't to say I didn't entertain the idea. I often discussed with Ted the notion of documenting our evidence. He wasn't too keen on it. He usually replied with a lot of mumbo jumbo about "linear thinking," and how astrology didn't work with "linear thinking."

Eventually, after about two years of making a complete and utter ass of myself, I sobered up and came to my senses. Part of the reason was that I finally started keeping a notebook and recording the results when i guessed sun signs. Part of it was that I began to look back and see all of the opportunities I had to fool myself and the ways I had taken advantage of them.

I look back on it now with total embarassment. But it has provided me with a lot of insight about how superstition can totally possess the mind of a believer.. Even now I sometimes catch myself thinking about whether a new acquaintance is a Virgo or Leo -- but I'll be damned if I'm going to ask them!!!!

Well, that's it for my confession.

If anyone wants to comfort me with their confessions of a similar experience, PLEASE DO!!!

Jerry

bluefugue · 01-31-2002, 07:40 PM

Hell, my mother was a professional astrologer. My sister still believes in that stuff too...

MortalWombat · 02-01-2002, 08:56 AM

I remember seeing some show a few years ago where James Randi was talking to a classroom of college students about astrology. On each student's desk was a piece of paper which he said had their horoscope. Each student was asked to read (silently) their horoscope and then rank it in terms of accuracy using a numeric scale (1 to 5, with 5 being most accurate). The majority of the students ranked their horoscope at 4 or 5. Then he asked them to pass their horoscope to the person behind them and then reread the new horoscope. It turns out that he had given every student the identical horoscope. Needless to say, it opened the eyes of a few of the students in the class, although there was still one guy in the class who insisted that astrology was real and tried to make some lame excuse about this test.

Mageth · 02-01-2002, 10:18 AM

Back before the Astros moved to Enron Field, I used to occasionally get Logue level seats at the Astrodome. I guess you could say they were Astro Loguey Seats.

Seriously, the only way the stars and planets affect my life is by inspiring awe at the vastness and wonder of our natural universe (other than the fact that most if not all of the molecules in my body were formed within stars and any quantum relationships my subatomic particles have with theirs

)

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Island3 · 02-01-2002, 04:53 PM

I just giggle because most astrologers still don't take the earth's precession circle into account when they make all those dumbass charts and horoscopes.

Francois Tremblay · 02-01-2002, 05:12 PM

Actually I read that even if we accept the improbable notion of "zodiac" and its influences on our life, there are supposed to be thirteen signs, not twelve. The name starts with O. I forgot.

Queen of Swords · 02-01-2002, 05:28 PM

I used to believe in astrology when I was sixteen or so. I went so far as to buy Linda Goodman's Love Signs, where she predicts that not one, but two undiscovered planets in the solar system have influences on our lives.

More gems from la Goodman :

Quote:

Someday very soon in this dawning Aquarian Age, the discovery of instruments sensitive enough to measure the tremendous energy of love's magnetic force field will demonstrate how its electrical impulses can interrupt Nature's laws (but not adversely), reverse gravity (and also reverse the aging process, through cell regeneration), increase telepathic communion and cause many other miraculous manifestations, which will finally convince skeptical science.

If it was negative, it didn't happen - except in the world of illusion.

On natural contraception/"astrobiology" :

Quote:

A woman can conceive only during a certain approximately two-hour period of each Lunar month, when the Sun and the Moon are exactly the same number of degrees apart as they were at the moment of the woman's first breath at birth.

There's a lot more fascinatingly crappy advice in this doorstopper book. Anyone who wants to see the depths to which astrologers can descend is advised to read it.

Island3 · 02-01-2002, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franc28:
Actually I read that even if we accept the improbable notion of "zodiac" and its influences on our life, there are supposed to be thirteen signs, not twelve. The name starts with O. I forgot.

Ophiuchus I think.

lpetrich · 02-01-2002, 06:44 PM

Ophiuchus is just north of Scorpius, and the falling-inside-Ophiuchus is using the modern definition of constellations as regions in the sky with well-defined boundaries.

Also, constellations are essentially arbitrary labels; "our" constellations have lots of characters from Greek and Roman mythology, the main exception being the southernmost constellations, whose names are what was high-tech in the 18th century.

I wonder if anyone has done a collection of constellation lore from different parts of the world; it would be interesting to see what different patterns different people have seen in the sky.

In fact, it might be fun to invent some constellations of our own.

Also, I wonder if Linda Goodman had attempted to predict the undiscovered planets' orbits, as John Couch Adams and Urbain Leverrier had done with Neptune.

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

01-31-2002, 04:53 PM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Astrology: excrement of the male bovine? From a comment in one of Isaac Asimov's essay books (the essay "The Stars in their Courses"); he notes that the mainstream scientific viewpoint on astrology is generally that the characteristic quality of astrological lore is very like the excrement of the male bovine. However dismissive this assessment may seem, it is abundantly supported by <a href="http://www.skepsis.no/english/subject/astrology/studies.html" target="_blank">numerous statistical studies</a>. Outside of Gauqelin's "Mars effect", only one of them reported any positive effect, and that was likely due to a self-fulfilling-prophecy effect. I think that such results deserve a LOT of publicity, no matter how much it makes skeptics seem like party-poopers.

02-01-2002, 10:18 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Back before the Astros moved to Enron Field, I used to occasionally get Logue level seats at the Astrodome. I guess you could say they were Astro Loguey Seats. Seriously, the only way the stars and planets affect my life is by inspiring awe at the vastness and wonder of our natural universe (other than the fact that most if not all of the molecules in my body were formed within stars and any quantum relationships my subatomic particles have with theirs ) [ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

02-01-2002, 06:44 PM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Ophiuchus is just north of Scorpius, and the falling-inside-Ophiuchus is using the modern definition of constellations as regions in the sky with well-defined boundaries. Also, constellations are essentially arbitrary labels; "our" constellations have lots of characters from Greek and Roman mythology, the main exception being the southernmost constellations, whose names are what was high-tech in the 18th century. I wonder if anyone has done a collection of constellation lore from different parts of the world; it would be interesting to see what different patterns different people have seen in the sky. In fact, it might be fun to invent some constellations of our own. Also, I wonder if Linda Goodman had attempted to predict the undiscovered planets' orbits, as John Couch Adams and Urbain Leverrier had done with Neptune. [ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

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01-31-2002, 05:25 PM	#2
Jerry Smith Guest Posts: n/a	To those of you who know me from the ii boards, this may come as a suprise. It is certainly a humbling story to tell. About 4 years ago, I became convinced of the authenticity of astrology (and as a result, of scads of new age style superstition). At the hands of a charismatic new age room mate, and under the influence of excessive consumption of alcohol, I was actually convinced of the truth of Astrology. The roommate's name was Ted - hereinafter, Ted the Greek. I became his roommate after a bad divorce (like there are any good ones). Almost his first conversation with me was a cold reading. I was a little bit impressed, but still very skeptical. Afterward, we became very close friends, and he taught me the techniques of cold reading (all the while with me convinced that I was doing legitimate astrological reading). He guessed the sun-signs of every stranger we met & taught me how to remember the successes and forget the failures. If we missed the sign, we checked the Element. If we missed both, we checked another category. If we missed there too, we checked for a cusp on something right. I was not ignorant of mathematics or of statistics, nor was I ignorant of the scientific method. I knew the hazards of sliding standards of accuracy, and I knew the fallacy of failing to report unsucessful results. Still, I managed to remain convinced that the everyday unexamined evidence was so overwhelming, that I didn't really need to apply statistics or the scientific method to it. That isn't to say I didn't entertain the idea. I often discussed with Ted the notion of documenting our evidence. He wasn't too keen on it. He usually replied with a lot of mumbo jumbo about "linear thinking," and how astrology didn't work with "linear thinking." Eventually, after about two years of making a complete and utter ass of myself, I sobered up and came to my senses. Part of the reason was that I finally started keeping a notebook and recording the results when i guessed sun signs. Part of it was that I began to look back and see all of the opportunities I had to fool myself and the ways I had taken advantage of them. I look back on it now with total embarassment. But it has provided me with a lot of insight about how superstition can totally possess the mind of a believer.. Even now I sometimes catch myself thinking about whether a new acquaintance is a Virgo or Leo -- but I'll be damned if I'm going to ask them!!!! Well, that's it for my confession. If anyone wants to comfort me with their confessions of a similar experience, PLEASE DO!!! Jerry

01-31-2002, 07:40 PM	#3
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Hell, my mother was a professional astrologer. My sister still believes in that stuff too...

02-01-2002, 08:56 AM	#4
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	I remember seeing some show a few years ago where James Randi was talking to a classroom of college students about astrology. On each student's desk was a piece of paper which he said had their horoscope. Each student was asked to read (silently) their horoscope and then rank it in terms of accuracy using a numeric scale (1 to 5, with 5 being most accurate). The majority of the students ranked their horoscope at 4 or 5. Then he asked them to pass their horoscope to the person behind them and then reread the new horoscope. It turns out that he had given every student the identical horoscope. Needless to say, it opened the eyes of a few of the students in the class, although there was still one guy in the class who insisted that astrology was real and tried to make some lame excuse about this test.

02-01-2002, 04:53 PM	#6
Island3 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 250	I just giggle because most astrologers still don't take the earth's precession circle into account when they make all those dumbass charts and horoscopes.

02-01-2002, 05:12 PM	#7
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Actually I read that even if we accept the improbable notion of "zodiac" and its influences on our life, there are supposed to be thirteen signs, not twelve. The name starts with O. I forgot.

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