EvolvEarth

I have pondered as to why Christians believe that the universe is too complex and must need a creator, but God, a deity that is complex in more ways that the universe and all of its inhabitants, has always existed.

Does this tell us that complexity begets complexity? As many, many atheists and agnostics pointed out, such as David Hume, if God is complex, then God must be a creator, however, that creator would also need a creator and then it'd just be a huge circular argument.

Richard Dawkins tells us how single step creations such as rocks and such are plausible, but single step creation such as the eye would be highly improbable. God is an example of a single step creation. He has been created in a single step process rather than a comulative process; this would be highly improbable than a universe without an intelligent designer.

The question is, why do Christians find it easier to believe that a complexity created complexity rather than simplicity evolves into complexity? Is it the years of being programmed into believing in a deity of some sorts? Is spirituality in our genes? Is it because humans get confused that since they can create something complex, then something higher and more intelligent must create us because we are complex ourselves?

Please, someone, enlighten me!

Jobar

I think it's because we are young as a thinking race, and few of us do it clearly and correctly. So few can even spell 'complexity' correctly; of those, few are able to clearly define it; and of *those*, few actually consider the consequences of it, and apply those thoughts to the beliefs they have been indoctrinated in since infancy.

The origins of religion seem to go back to the origins of human intelligence. We see nature religions often have a Great Mother as ultimate goddess, since birth is a universal experience. The idea of a *male* ubergod goes back to the beginnings of pyramidally-organized monarchies- a 'King on High' who rules from above, a commander rather than a mother figure.

Since we are the result of thousands of years of social pressure to believe in some god, it may be that until now unbelief has been a non-survival trait strongly selected against. So it seems possible that yes, belief is in our genes. Only time will tell if our own skeptical society will survive.

diana

As Jobar mentioned, while we all have brains, most people don't know how to use them. Or maybe I'm putting words in Jobar's mouth.

Your points are well taken. If complexity requires a designer, then God, who is more complex than us, must require a designer and we end up with infinite regression--which is precisely what Christians don't want to consider.

How do they get there? My guess is that they begin with the conclusion they're trying to reach and look for ways to prove it right--as opposed to the converse, which is the only rational way. To wit: start with the evidence and determine what conclusions can be drawn from it, and no more.

I don't think spirituality is in our genes, though. I think it would never occur to most people to posit, without coaching, a being they couldn't see, let alone a being they couldn't see who is all-powerful etc, controls everything, and gives a shit what each person is thinking. These must be ideas that are planted in children's heads from their environment, ideas that have been embellished in the my-god-is-bigger-than-your-god playground drama of history.

I vote No on genetic. People have many reasons, once they have the idea, to look for reasons to believe it, though.

d

Tenek

Complexity seems to be a term only defined by its opposite, simplicity. Sundial is less complex than watch is less complex than atomic clock.

In this day and age - apologies for that boring line - people can see much but make little sense of it. Many years ago, people just sorta were born, the sun just sorta shines, rain just sorta falls, The End. Now we have detailed genetic analysis, particle physics, meteorology, etc., and we lack the intelligence to easily understand these things. Drawing analogies helps us understand, but at the same time skews our understanding to familiar ideas. Using the idea of a "Great Watchmaker" to create such an ordered universe gives the impression that the universe has some sort of Great Purpose to go along with it. This is the point at which the analogy fails, because we have no reason to believe that the universe has a Great Purpose to it - short of arrogance, anyways, that Homo sapiens is the purpose and that the universe is our playground.

And after all that - how complex is the Universe, really? If you throw together a bunch of matter, energy, and a few basic laws, what else are you going to get? Sooner or later something relatively complex will arise but still be an insignificant speck in the vastness of space.

Hopefully that made some sense. I'm starting to wonder myself. :P

lpetrich

Let's not forget about all the religions that have a multitude of deities.

And deities with finite powers, deities that can even be wicked.

And even the single-god religions often have lots of subordinate beings like angels and saints.

All the older religions have had multiple deities, and if one argues from longevity, then polytheism clearly wins.

And though mother goddesses were often prominent, they would always coexist with other deities.

I'm not sure how far back one can look with various cultural-reconstruction techniques, but there are tantalizing hints here and there.

Darth Dane

Watch the movie Pi. Pi is used in the description of circles(perfect circles), spheres(perfect spheres), and also wave patterns.

If we started from something simple something that was just One, and we get more complex, then the potential for human evolution, including flying and whatnot, is infinite, for if we can, just like the number Pi, always add one more digit to get more precise, more perfect or perfectly expressed.

Life is a selfperfecting process, which humans can realize...perhaps

Isn't it perfect we aren't perfect, but can see it, so we can evolve to even higher states of being. Maybe the notion of God's is our, yet unrealised, understanding of our own future. We are destined to become like God's.

"Ye are Gods, of the most high" Psalms 82 (I think)





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