Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cross Examiner · 08-12-2003, 03:58 AM

BrotherMan,

Not a criticism or rebuttal, just some info:

quote:
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"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-- Verbal Kint
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Update your quote repetoire. Baudelaire said it first.

Je sais, mais, ce n'est pas la pointe. Et j'ai lu Baudelaire (Les Fleurs de Mal) et al. Les atheists pensent souvent qu'ils sont les plus intelligents.

Regards,
BGic

Alan N · 08-12-2003, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B. H. Manners
Somebody already asked about Satan and free will but I'd like to know who was the temptor of Satan along with that.

WIWAC� (when I was a Christian), these kind of questions invited the usual scourge, because for a Christian, the focus is on the cross. Every thing else is peripheral. The focus is on your repentance and personal salvation. I did a Google search on -satan fall from heaven- and there is quite a bit of discussion.

Hedshaker · 08-12-2003, 06:15 AM

I rather like the "Two sides of the same coin" idea. Can't wait to share this "revelation" with the Jovies when the come knocking.

Jobar · 08-12-2003, 06:16 AM

BGiC- Anglais, s'il vous plait. Not everyone here speaks French.

Stephen T-B · 08-12-2003, 06:27 AM

As creator of all things, God created Satan.
Being omniscient, he knew Satan would rebel and tempt mankind.
So why didn't he destroy him before he went off the rails?

Because it was his intention that Man should be tempted.
It was all part of his plan.

We see this in the story of the Garden of Eden where he put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He had created �the serpent.� He knew the serpent would tempt Eve to eat its fruit; he knew Eve would tempt Adam. he knew they would both disobey him and eat it, allowing him to curse them and setting in motion the events which would lead to his own sacrifice in the shape of Jesus Christ.
It was all part of his plan.
(This is one weird Deity. A suitable case for treatment, one might think.)

Magus55 · 08-12-2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
No, it's talking about stars. That's why it says "stars".

You're forgetting Hebrew cosmology again. A dome over the flat Earth, to which the stars are attached. At various stages in the events of Revelation, stars get knocked off and fall down.

How could a dragon thrashing about on Earth knock angels out of Heaven?

So it seems that this rebellion of "one-third of the angels" isn't in the Bible at all.

Yes it is. Angels are referred to as "stars" of heaven. Its figurative. The woman described in that verse is Israel, and the child born of the woman is Jesus.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Hedshaker · 08-12-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Yes it is. Angels are referred to as "stars" of heaven. Its figurative. The woman described in that verse is Israel, and the child born of the woman is Jesus.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

No disrespect Maguss but doesn't this all sound just a tad silly? What the hell was God thinking? And doesn't the fact that one has to do so much ducking and twisting to hold onto such beliefs tell you something? Just a little something deep down?

It should

Stephen T-B · 08-12-2003, 09:40 AM

There was a very interesting discussion among academics on a BBC Radio 4 programme recently about the authorship of Revelations, and how it got into the Bible.
The concensus was that the author (whose name I've forgotten, but it wasn't the usual suspect) was out of his head on drugs. I've also forgotten how it got included in the Bible, except it didn't happen until quite late, and was the cause of some controversy , thanks to a fairly widespread opinion that it was garbage.
It's appeal lies in the very fact that it doesn't even begin to make sense, allowing any fantasist to put any interpretation on it he / she wants to, And the more mystical, the better.

Magus55 · 08-12-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
There was a very interesting discussion among academics on a BBC Radio 4 programme recently about the authorship of Revelations, and how it got into the Bible.
The concensus was that the author (whose name I've forgotten, but it wasn't the usual suspect) was out of his head on drugs. I've also forgotten how it got included in the Bible, except it didn't happen until quite late, and was the cause of some controversy , thanks to a fairly widespread opinion that it was garbage.
It's appeal lies in the very fact that it doesn't even begin to make sense, allowing any fantasist to put any interpretation on it he / she wants to, And the more mystical, the better.

Doesn't make sense to whom? Sure, I will grant Revelation is a very complicated book, if not the most complicated in the Bible, but that doesn't make it false. And alot of Revelation points itself back to other parts of the Bible, so its hardly irrelevant and of place in the Bible.

Magus55 · 08-12-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bornyetagain
No disrespect Maguss but doesn't this all sound just a tad silly? What the hell was God thinking? And doesn't the fact that one has to do so much ducking and twisting to hold onto such beliefs tell you something? Just a little something deep down?

It should

What ducking and twisting? Took me 30 seconds to find the quotes about the angels falling from Heaven, and a war going on between Satan and Michael. It makes sense to me, not sure what your problem is.

08-12-2003, 03:58 AM	#31
Cross Examiner Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 1,881	il n'y a rien nouveau sous la soleil BrotherMan, Not a criticism or rebuttal, just some info: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-- Verbal Kint -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Update your quote repetoire. Baudelaire said it first. Je sais, mais, ce n'est pas la pointe. Et j'ai lu Baudelaire (Les Fleurs de Mal) et al. Les atheists pensent souvent qu'ils sont les plus intelligents. Regards, BGic

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08-12-2003, 06:15 AM	#33
Hedshaker Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: https://soundcloud.com/dark-blue-man Posts: 3,526	I rather like the "Two sides of the same coin" idea. Can't wait to share this "revelation" with the Jovies when the come knocking.

08-12-2003, 06:16 AM	#34
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	BGiC- Anglais, s'il vous plait. Not everyone here speaks French.

08-12-2003, 06:27 AM	#35
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	As creator of all things, God created Satan. Being omniscient, he knew Satan would rebel and tempt mankind. So why didn't he destroy him before he went off the rails? Because it was his intention that Man should be tempted. It was all part of his plan. We see this in the story of the Garden of Eden where he put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He had created �the serpent.� He knew the serpent would tempt Eve to eat its fruit; he knew Eve would tempt Adam. he knew they would both disobey him and eat it, allowing him to curse them and setting in motion the events which would lead to his own sacrifice in the shape of Jesus Christ. It was all part of his plan. (This is one weird Deity. A suitable case for treatment, one might think.)

08-12-2003, 09:40 AM	#38
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	There was a very interesting discussion among academics on a BBC Radio 4 programme recently about the authorship of Revelations, and how it got into the Bible. The concensus was that the author (whose name I've forgotten, but it wasn't the usual suspect) was out of his head on drugs. I've also forgotten how it got included in the Bible, except it didn't happen until quite late, and was the cause of some controversy , thanks to a fairly widespread opinion that it was garbage. It's appeal lies in the very fact that it doesn't even begin to make sense, allowing any fantasist to put any interpretation on it he / she wants to, And the more mystical, the better.

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