Hedshaker

If I'm to read it correctly, satan is a fallen angel of God?

Now whilst I'm told man has free will, I was not aware this luxury was afforded angels. Which means that, Satan, inspite of not having free will some how managed to defy God and become the evil one, responsible for all that is bad, forever tempting man from his true path (women too).

So, without Satan, God would have no meaning (!) and of course, and more to the point, vise versa.

See my dilema. Who the hell is this sucker? And maybe it's easier to argue against Satan than God.

Or maybe I'm being delude by Saten himself? Gosh that's deep

Cross Examiner

bornyetagain,

ever see "The Usual Suspects?"

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-- Verbal Kint

Regards,
BGic

Jobar

Bloody good question, bya.

I'd like some of our theist posters to tell us if Lucifer Morningstar the angel had free will, and if he did, just what separates the angels from humans? As I understand it, the whole reason God allows human beings to sin is because (for whatever reason) God values free will over human innocence and goodness. If this is so, and if Samael *also* had free will, why is it that God condemns him to hell, with no possibility of salvation?

Wiploc

This is the best of all possible worlds. It is best because it is the most glorifying to god. In this universe, god gets to make a great sacrifice (the crusifixion) so save unworthy people (unworthy because of the fall) from a terrible fate (eternal torment in Hellfire). God could have left us in Eden, but then he would not have had the glory of the crusifixion.

The above is the traditional Christian picture of history. According to this picture, the temptation of Eve, and her fall, was part of god's divine plan. That is, even though Eve had free will, she was definitely going to do as god wished by eating the fruit. And regardless of whether the serpent had free will, he was definitely going to tempt Eve. An all-powerful god wasn't about to let them thwart his plan.

crc

Hedshaker

Mmmm, if the anti-christ (that's Satan too isn't it?) does indeed exist I'd say it was a rank poor trick and Verbal Kint should consider sticking with his day job.

I think this is the essence of my dilemma. Also, If Satan was really an angel, from where did he learn the concept of evil? Free will or not, he must have gained that knowledge from somewhere.

Just preaching god is good, god is all powerful doesn't solve my dilemma.


Don't think I follow the reasong here. Are you saying that God acually promoted Satan in order to tempt Eve, inorder to justify sending his son to be crusified? To atone for everyone else sins to boot. Don't be silly! Don't you think the all powerfull creator of the universe is a tad smarter than that?

Now lets hear some proper excuses, then I'll tell you what I think.

Peace

bya

Wiploc

I don't say it's a good justification for god's behavior; but it is the only one I've heard that makes any sense. It is also the traditional Chrisitian belief on the subject. That is, to the extent that there is an orthodox position, this is it.

The weakness of this line is that it puts god's interests at odds with human interests. It leaves us with no reason to even want to be "good" according to what god thinks is good.

crc

Magus55

Well the Bible says that angels sinned and left their first habitation ( Heaven), so angels most likely were created with free will. If they weren't, there wouldn't be any fallen angels.

Satan was an archangel that rebelled against God, and brought a third of all the angels in Heaven to rebell with him. God then created Hell to hold Satan and the fallen angels until the final judgement where by they will all be chained and bound into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

JaeIsGod

The local hot-dog salesman over here claims to be Satan.

Oh , and Magus , care to support those claims with Bible verses? I can't remember ever reading about that.

Magus55

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Mageth

So you're quoting information about a mythical character obtained from a mythical character?

Not much surprise there, really, if you think about it.

But last time I checked, there were a lot of people in the world that are convinced the devil exists. More than one on this thread, it would seem.

"The greatest trick the New Testament writers ever pulled was convincing the world the devil exists." -- Mageth