Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Indifference · 05-29-2002, 03:43 PM

post-it:

It's interesting that you arbitrarily threw out the one citation that you couldn't twist the words around to sound gentler.

Marduk · 05-29-2002, 03:46 PM

"Where in the bible does it clearly say that after death, non-believers will simply cease to exist?"

The only one I can think of is Paul, "the wages of sin are death"

Blu · 05-29-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tergiversant:
I forgot to mention a few things generally considered implicit in the definition of hell:

1) Created by "God"
2) Unpleasant (i.e. torturous)
3) Involuntary
4) Eternal

My response:

Your argument is flawed. Who says war is hell? If war is voluntary, meaning it was created by man and in his control to end it or begin it, what makes war hell?

RJS · 05-29-2002, 04:18 PM

Hey Seebs, are you the same guy that used to hang out on the Yahoo chat boards (for the YHOO stock that is about 3 years ago)? I think you were with an ISP called plethora? If so, what a coincidence, and what a memory by me

If so, let me know - I have an amazing story for you. I havent followed your posts here, are you a Christian? You say Christian skeptic, but I am confused.

Thanks. PS - I just saw your email address, and it is plethora, lets have this discussion privately.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Taffy Lewis · 05-29-2002, 04:18 PM

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"Destroy" seems to entail nonexistence.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

If you perish you don't exist. Notice that perishing is contrasted with everlasting life.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-29-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tergiversant:
1) God is loving and just.
2) Hell is neither.
3) If God exists, Hell does not.
4) If Hell exists, God does not.
5) War is Hell.
6) :. God does not exist.

Surely, there is some tounge-in-cheek here with premise (5), but the point is that theists must deny either (1) or (2) in order to maintain that both God and Hell exist.
[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: tergiversant ]

Denying 2 is not a problem as 'just' is completely subjective to begin with.

I mostly disagree with hypothesis 3...If God exists, hell does not. This is completely opposite of Judeo-Christian theology.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar · 05-29-2002, 07:45 PM

It seems to me that the argument goes that *if* God is both just and loving, then a Hell where sinners are punished eternally (a la Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God") is a logical impossibility. Given the simple extinction of sinners, or the denial of God's benevolence, the argument collapses.

I feel that those Christians who deny the existence of a literal, eternal Hell for human souls are at least morally, and probably intellectually, superior to the 'Hellfire and Damnation' fundies- but I also note that H&D Christians are plentiful, and even ascendant politically over the more liberal ones. So the argument is effective against someone with fundamentalist beliefs. Unless they burn you at the stake.

Philosoft · 05-29-2002, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:


Your argument is flawed. Who says war is hell? If war is voluntary, meaning it was created by man and in his control to end it or begin it, what makes war hell?

You've got to be kidding. As he clearly indicated, Terg was making a joke. That premise obviously isn't required for the argument to proceed.

post-it · 05-30-2002, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:

Where in the bible does it clearly say that after death, non-believers will simply cease to exist?[/QB]

Many Many times it says that we will die or perish. "For the wages of sin is death." "John 3:16 believe or perish" and many more saying "death" is the result.

So let me return this one back to you for your side. "Where does it clearly say that after death, the non-believer will suffer torment forever in hell?

tergiversant · 05-30-2002, 05:41 PM

A few brief replies...

seebs:
Your stipulative concept of justice is fascinating, and wholly unlike any usage of the term that I’ve encountered in the English language. No one says that fire and gravity are just. Impartial, perhaps.

post-it, Mageth, & Taffy:
A fascinating hermaneutical battle you’ve got going on the nature of Hell. I would think the very early non-canonical writings might shed some light on how the canonical gospels, epistles and apocalypse ought to be interpreted. I’ll see what I can come up with soon enough, unless someone else beats me to the punch.

post-it:
I said that theists would have to deny either premise (1) or (2). You have effectively denied premise (2) by claiming that for God to implement “annihilationist hell” is both loving and just. Now, I doubt that this is true, but it is certainly a damned sight better than “brimstone hell.”

(The above damnation pun was entirely deliberate.)

My argument was clearly not directed at universalists or even annihiliationists, but rather at hellfire theists, as Jobar previously pointed out. Nevertheless, I would be interested in hearing in what sense it is loving and just for God to annihilate “sinners,” as opposed to, say, putting them in the Betty Ford Clinic.

S.O.M.M.S.:
Denying premise (2) is indeed a problem if doing so violates your own allegedly subjective idea of justice. Do you truly consider “Hell” (as I defined it) as just? If so, would you please expound the nature of justice?

Blu:
Your jokes are far more subtle than mine.

Philosoft & Jobar:
Right on, right on, right on.

-- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

05-29-2002, 04:18 PM	#24
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	Hey Seebs, are you the same guy that used to hang out on the Yahoo chat boards (for the YHOO stock that is about 3 years ago)? I think you were with an ISP called plethora? If so, what a coincidence, and what a memory by me If so, let me know - I have an amazing story for you. I havent followed your posts here, are you a Christian? You say Christian skeptic, but I am confused. Thanks. PS - I just saw your email address, and it is plethora, lets have this discussion privately. [ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ] [ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

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05-29-2002, 03:43 PM	#21
Indifference Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 165	post-it: It's interesting that you arbitrarily threw out the one citation that you couldn't twist the words around to sound gentler.

05-29-2002, 03:46 PM	#22
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Where in the bible does it clearly say that after death, non-believers will simply cease to exist?" The only one I can think of is Paul, "the wages of sin are death"

05-29-2002, 04:18 PM	#25
Taffy Lewis Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North America Posts: 203	"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) "Destroy" seems to entail nonexistence. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) If you perish you don't exist. Notice that perishing is contrasted with everlasting life.

05-29-2002, 07:45 PM	#27
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	It seems to me that the argument goes that if God is both just and loving, then a Hell where sinners are punished eternally (a la Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God") is a logical impossibility. Given the simple extinction of sinners, or the denial of God's benevolence, the argument collapses. I feel that those Christians who deny the existence of a literal, eternal Hell for human souls are at least morally, and probably intellectually, superior to the 'Hellfire and Damnation' fundies- but I also note that H&D Christians are plentiful, and even ascendant politically over the more liberal ones. So the argument is effective against someone with fundamentalist beliefs. Unless they burn you at the stake.

05-30-2002, 05:41 PM	#30
tergiversant Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OKC, OK Posts: 100	A few brief replies... seebs: Your stipulative concept of justice is fascinating, and wholly unlike any usage of the term that I’ve encountered in the English language. No one says that fire and gravity are just. Impartial, perhaps. post-it, Mageth, & Taffy: A fascinating hermaneutical battle you’ve got going on the nature of Hell. I would think the very early non-canonical writings might shed some light on how the canonical gospels, epistles and apocalypse ought to be interpreted. I’ll see what I can come up with soon enough, unless someone else beats me to the punch. post-it: I said that theists would have to deny either premise (1) or (2). You have effectively denied premise (2) by claiming that for God to implement “annihilationist hell” is both loving and just. Now, I doubt that this is true, but it is certainly a damned sight better than “brimstone hell.” (The above damnation pun was entirely deliberate.) My argument was clearly not directed at universalists or even annihiliationists, but rather at hellfire theists, as Jobar previously pointed out. Nevertheless, I would be interested in hearing in what sense it is loving and just for God to annihilate “sinners,” as opposed to, say, putting them in the Betty Ford Clinic. S.O.M.M.S.: Denying premise (2) is indeed a problem if doing so violates your own allegedly subjective idea of justice. Do you truly consider “Hell” (as I defined it) as just? If so, would you please expound the nature of justice? Blu: Your jokes are far more subtle than mine. Philosoft & Jobar: Right on, right on, right on. -- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org <a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a> "Atheists are OK."

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