Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ps418 · 01-19-2002, 07:04 PM

A few new links:

From Glenn Morton:

<a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/murray.htm" target="_blank">John Murray: A Misrepresentation of History Critique of Mortenson's webpage.</a>

<a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/grandcanyon.htm" target="_blank">Steve Austin's Grand Canyon Argument: Mathematical Sleight of Hand.</a>

<a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/design.htm" target="_blank">Nineteenth Century Design arguments--A 19th Century Behe.</a>

From TalkOrigins:

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/olson.html" target="_blank">Ed Max rebuttal of Ross Olson, M.D. </a>

Max points out a new lie being promoted by Dr. Gish. This would be good fodder for LordValentine's webpage. According to Max:

Dr. Gish's arguments at our most recent debate were substantially identical to the ones he made at earlier debates, but he had one new one. He stated that the Organ of Corti, which analyzes sound vibration in the inner ears of mammals, has no counterpart in lower vertebrates like reptiles, in contrast to what evolution would predict. I stated at the debate that I believed this was false, that lower vertebrates had a similar, presumably homologous organ for hearing but that it was not coiled as in humans. When I went home and checked the literature, I found that I was correct and that Gish, as usual, was wrong. Although the term "Organ of Corti" does seem to be reserved in the literature for mammals, reptiles have a very similar organ. If Dr. Gish looked at a scanning electron microscope picture of the basilar papilla of the Gekkota (a kind of lizard), with its three rows of outer hair cells and its one row of inner hair cells (Miller, J Anat 138: 301, 1984; Figure #18), I doubt he would be able to distinguish it from a mammalian Organ of Corti. After the debate I wrote a courteous letter to Dr. Gish requesting the references that would support his claim at the debate. I have received no reply. I conclude that Dr. Gish's claim about the mammalian Organ of Corti having no putative homolog in lower vertebrates is another example of shoddy creationist scholarship.

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/" target="_blank">Version 2.1 of 29 Evidences for Common Descent</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html" target="_blank">A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique" of 29 Evidences</a>

Other stuff:

<a href="http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/korthof55.htm" target="_blank">Gert Korthof reviews The Origin of Animal Body Plans. A study in Evolutionary Developmental Biology (2000) </a>

<a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/1/309" target="_blank">PNAS article: Evidence of positive selection acting at the human dopamine receptor D4 gene locus</a>

<a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/1/286" target="_blank">PNAS article: Evolution of sociality in a primitively eusocial lineage of bees</a>

avid1 · 05-22-2002, 02:58 PM

An update on the top link; Mortenson responds to Morton here: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0206mortenson_response.asp" target="_blank">Mortenson Response to Morton</a>

Slightly longer version: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0206Mortenson_long_response.asp" target="_blank">Mortenson Response to Morton</a>

Read the rebuttal, it's quite enlightening.

Dr.GH · 05-22-2002, 03:51 PM

Say hey Patrick. Thanks to you and avid1 for the links.

Nic Tamzek · 05-23-2002, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418:
A few new links:

From Glenn Morton:

A smart man...

Check this one out:

<a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/design.htm" target="_blank">Nineteenth Century Design arguments--A 19th Century Behe.</a>

E.g.:

Quote:

Knowing nothing of continental drift or the origin of the mountains rimming the Pacific ocean, Taylor argues that the topography is an evidence of design. Today the mountains along the Pacific coasts of North and South America are known to be uplifted through the effects of the subduction of the Pacific oceanic plates. Since there is no such convergence He says:

�The mountains descend gradually towards the Atlantic and Frozen Oceans; while their slopes are rapid and precipitous towards the Pacific and Indian Oceans.
�If this order were reversed,� says Professor Guyot, �and the elevation of the lands went on increasing toward the north, the most civilized half of the globe at the present, would be a frozen and uninhabitable desert.� This disposition of the slopes is most uniform and remarkable. There is nothing in the formation of the continental masses better adapted to impress the mind with the idea of original design.� George Taylor, The Indications of the Creator or, The Natural Evidences of Final Cause, (Glasgow: William Collins, c. 1860), p. 137

It had previously occurred to me that one could demonstrate the weakness of a design-style argument by looking at things like the matching outlines of the continents, distributions of mountains, deserts, etc., but this Taylor guy actually attempted it (with a bizzarre bit of Euro-centrism too).

nic

tgamble · 05-23-2002, 04:32 PM

It's not new, but it's still good.
<a href="http://www.meta-library.net/perspevo/nilese-frame.html" target="_blank">http://www.meta-library.net/perspevo/nilese-frame.html</a>

Even that idiot Duane Gish is there. Makes you want to puke the way he babbles on about fair and unbiased teaching when his own organization makes its members sign a fucking statement of faith! Pathetic!

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]</p>

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01-19-2002, 07:04 PM	#1
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	New Stuff on the web A few new links: From Glenn Morton: <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/murray.htm" target="_blank">John Murray: A Misrepresentation of History Critique of Mortenson's webpage.</a> <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/grandcanyon.htm" target="_blank">Steve Austin's Grand Canyon Argument: Mathematical Sleight of Hand.</a> <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/design.htm" target="_blank">Nineteenth Century Design arguments--A 19th Century Behe.</a> From TalkOrigins: <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/olson.html" target="_blank">Ed Max rebuttal of Ross Olson, M.D. </a> Max points out a new lie being promoted by Dr. Gish. This would be good fodder for LordValentine's webpage. According to Max: Dr. Gish's arguments at our most recent debate were substantially identical to the ones he made at earlier debates, but he had one new one. He stated that the Organ of Corti, which analyzes sound vibration in the inner ears of mammals, has no counterpart in lower vertebrates like reptiles, in contrast to what evolution would predict. I stated at the debate that I believed this was false, that lower vertebrates had a similar, presumably homologous organ for hearing but that it was not coiled as in humans. When I went home and checked the literature, I found that I was correct and that Gish, as usual, was wrong. Although the term "Organ of Corti" does seem to be reserved in the literature for mammals, reptiles have a very similar organ. If Dr. Gish looked at a scanning electron microscope picture of the basilar papilla of the Gekkota (a kind of lizard), with its three rows of outer hair cells and its one row of inner hair cells (Miller, J Anat 138: 301, 1984; Figure #18), I doubt he would be able to distinguish it from a mammalian Organ of Corti. After the debate I wrote a courteous letter to Dr. Gish requesting the references that would support his claim at the debate. I have received no reply. I conclude that Dr. Gish's claim about the mammalian Organ of Corti having no putative homolog in lower vertebrates is another example of shoddy creationist scholarship. <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/" target="_blank">Version 2.1 of 29 Evidences for Common Descent</a> <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html" target="_blank">A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique" of 29 Evidences</a> Other stuff: <a href="http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/korthof55.htm" target="_blank">Gert Korthof reviews The Origin of Animal Body Plans. A study in Evolutionary Developmental Biology (2000) </a> <a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/1/309" target="_blank">PNAS article: Evidence of positive selection acting at the human dopamine receptor D4 gene locus</a> <a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/1/286" target="_blank">PNAS article: Evolution of sociality in a primitively eusocial lineage of bees</a>

05-22-2002, 02:58 PM	#2
avid1 New Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: ky Posts: 1	An update on the top link; Mortenson responds to Morton here: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0206mortenson_response.asp" target="_blank">Mortenson Response to Morton</a> Slightly longer version: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0206Mortenson_long_response.asp" target="_blank">Mortenson Response to Morton</a> Read the rebuttal, it's quite enlightening.

05-22-2002, 03:51 PM	#3
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Say hey Patrick. Thanks to you and avid1 for the links.

05-23-2002, 04:32 PM	#5
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	It's not new, but it's still good. <a href="http://www.meta-library.net/perspevo/nilese-frame.html" target="_blank">http://www.meta-library.net/perspevo/nilese-frame.html</a> Even that idiot Duane Gish is there. Makes you want to puke the way he babbles on about fair and unbiased teaching when his own organization makes its members sign a fucking statement of faith! Pathetic! [ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]</p>

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