A3

Hi WJ,
As I’ll be of to Florida tomorrow, (I know, but somebody has to do it) there is no time to ask you if you want to receive it, but if not - just delete it. All your points are legit. I’ll try to email you a small book “The Human Mind.” It seems to explain a lot about our minds and its purpose in the grand scheme if things. If nothing else, I hope it will give you something to think about
Kind regards
A3
=============================================
Hi Spin:
A3: (This would also make Him the creator of evil).
SpinThis doesn't follow from anything.
What do devils love to do: evil. If God created devils He would be the creator of evil too.

A3: We believe that the meaning of this material life is to make ourselves angels or devils for the next life.
SpinAs you believe your god created you, then he is responsible for the outcome of the actions of the individuals he created.
You are making us into Kenmore products. He created us responsible human beings, not for His sake but for ours, to enjoy life this great life to the fullest. When you get a traffic ticket, do you send it to the company that made your car?

A3: You are the living prove of the fact that humans CAN choose to do or not do what He says!!!!!
SpinNot much of anything I do is my choice.
I’m really sorry to hear that. Are you still living with your parents? If you reflect on it you will be amazed how much you can control of your own life (at least in the Western World). Have you ever tried to help someone or make someone else happy, just for the sake of seeing them happy?
Try it sometimes.
A3: You seem to think that something (or nothing?) started this dumb train-set in which trains derail and collide seemingly without reason.
Spin:What makes you think it had a start? Think of infinity: try to go there; when you reach what you were thinking of, there is still infinity in front of you.
Try NOT to go there! To me the word ‘creation’ implies a start, just like the big bang. Thinking about infinity and eternity from space and time drives a person nuts. Besides, what is the use?

A3: HOW WOULD YOU HAVE DESIGNED THE WORLD?
Spin: I wouldn't have designed it. I see no reason for it to exist. I see no sign of it having been designed. I see no need for it.
Again, I’m sorry you feel that way. If you want to see them, there are many good things about life too. What do you suppose is the reason why you think of life this way?
Spin:Your god doesn't of course need human beings, but you seem to think he created them for some reason
Yes, He created us because He needs us. The reason is that He needs someone outside of Himself to love and who has the freedom to return that love (that is the nature of love). He loves us whatever our choices are. Even if we choose to go to hell, He is there to look after us. Giving someone the choice and then hating them for making the wrong choice is rediculous, He doesn’t work that way.
My question to you is, where did you come from? Chance, evolution, accident?
Keep in mind that if you think we all just evolved from an accident, there are still a lot of people having a whole lot of fun just evolving. There are a lot of good things to this life if you want to see them, with or without a God.

A3

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Kent Stevens

Consider those people who are good and are highly religious. They are kind and spend a great deal of time giving praise to God. These people have free will to choose what they do yet they choose to serve God. This would be in part because of inherent tendencies and the belief that God exists. You would have thought that God would have made us all like this rather than capable of enjoying evil.

God could have designed us so that we feel physically sick when we try to do anything deeply immoral. He could have made it so that people do not like physically beating up others at all. He could have made us so that we collapse in agony if we try to mass murder others. This would not have been taking away freedom because we might still decide to do wrong but feel pain immediately for doing so.

Unfortunately, some Christians seem very keen to jump into other people's faces to try to save them. But God seems to totally undermine their efforts by carefully hiding himself away from the world. So all the theists in these forums are undermined by their own spiritual boss. All God need do is show that he exists and that he is not like the Easter Bunny and just about everyone would follow him. That he hides himself away suggests that he likes the evil that results from people making up lies about him.

Kent Stevens

Look at the humanoid fossils. They show an increase in capacities from the non-human animals to modern day humans.

You have opened up a argument that covers a massive area. The correct forum for discussing the truth or falsehood of evolution and the big bang is not in this forum. To completely answer your questions you should take them to the science forum. However, I will respond in part to your questions here.


1. Has ethics evolved? No.

Ethics have changed over time. People are much more generous than other animals in the kindness and co-operation that they show others. Ethics have changed even over a period of 500 years. For example we now think it is unacceptable to enslave anyone.


2. Who/how is it explained: creation of birds, animals, insects, physical matter, the mind?

The creation of different animals is explained through Darwinism. There is variation in the different organisms followed by a weeding out by the enivironment of those variations that fail. How is God explained in his infinite complexity?


3. Why did the Big Bang occur?

The big bang just happened. There are some things that we honestly do not know such as how exactly did the Universe began. But, it is dishonest to use these areas that we remain ignorant about as certain evidence for the existence of God.


4. What is the nature of Ex-nihilo?

I take it you are saying how can the universe be made out of nothing. I do not know, but I do not seek out areas of ignorance to justify my beliefs on. I take what I find to be reliably true to plan my life with. Anyway, who made God and how can God be created out of nothing? You are left with something that you can not explain. But an infinitely complex God's formation is still a lot harder to explain than the much simpler universe's formation.


5. How did the universe evolve? And if it did, would other life forms subsequently appear or currently exist somewhere being much smarter than we? Why us?

The universe changed just as life on earth changes. There may be other forms of life on other planets either intelligent or not intelligent. This is not relevant to there being any Gods.


6. And why do we even 'think' that we should be 'smarter' to begin with? I'm just an evolved animal, who cares? Evolved in order to do what? What's the purpose of evolution viz. human consciousness itself?

Like any other living thing we have evolved to survive and reproduce. But, we can choose to do different things than just this. Our purpose is found in whatever we choose to do.

We are smart and powerful in our technology and our teamwork because this gave our ancestors the competitive advantage over other animals and other competiting tribes. Our mind, consciousness, and other capacities are so that we can survive. This survival essentially relies on the assistance of others in our own societies.


If you want to discuss topics with others it adds to your credibility if you get the spelling of other peoples names correct Walrus. I am Kent and though I am familiar with the german philosopher Kant my viewpoints are quite different from his.

Knowledge about gratiational forces and motion is quite useful when you are firing missiles or canon balls. Being smart enough to create spears, axes, and bows and arrows does help us with our survival. The by product of capabilities is that we are successful enough to indulge in other interests that do not immediately fulfill our necessities of food, water, and shelter.

WJ

Sorry Kent!

I agree it would be appropriate to discuss this in further detail in another forum. However, I believe it was you who brought it up. No matter, your resposes are mainly false in any regard.

Just one quick example, ethics has not evolved at all. There remains the same issues of suffering, purpose, sin, etc, etc, from when man first appeared with his higher level of consciousness. All you are simply saying is that man is just building bigger bombs to inihilate each other. Ethics is still a problem. In fact ethics has nothing to do with survival in the jungle-bilogical advantages. If you want me to challenge you [and prove you wrong I will], but one of us will have to start a new thread... .

Walrus

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Kent Stevens

In terms of ethics it is almost impossible to convince religious people of one of the most basic of things, that things do change. Philosophies, religions, technologies, and societies change but somehow God's ethics do not change. This is despite of the clear evidence that moral ideas have changed since when the bible was written. Theists will not admit the truth that morality does not change as this suggests that God changes his mind. If you think that morality does not change see how you would go in buying a person as a slave.

I will start a thread that responds in part to what you are saying Walrus. However, I do not expect you to prove me wrong or for me to prove you wrong. This is because religious people can potentially faith their way out of any absurdity that their religion cooks up. I will defend my viewpoint and you will likely just quibble with a few points. It is unlikely because of pride and entrenched principles that either of us will change their ideas.

I am a rationalist and subscribe to using reasoning to say whether something exists or not. The religious person however lives by faith, they walk by faith, and only use a little reason. It is unlikely that you will convert me to faith or for me to convert you to reason. It is unlikely that you would make me turn away from believing in the reliability of scientific evidence. But at the least in our discussions can we debate as adults and not like children, which can easily happen in these discussions.

What you seem to be saying is that because of lack of scientific evidence god exists. This is usually called something like the God of gaps argument. I will start this topic in the existence of god forum. This topic has already been much explored in these forums if you want to look at previous discussions about it. The gaps being where people do not know things for sure. These gaps could be attributable to God. So for example we do not know how the universe is created so god must exist to create it. Or the theory of evolution is not perfect in it's prediction, so an infinite being must exist or the easter bunny must exist to explain any shortfalls from perfect explanation with evolution.

What many fundamentalists would love to do is prove that the theory of biological evolution is scientifically false. So far all the efforts over the centuries have failed to remove Darwinism from the scientific literature. You might as well be arguing that Newton's Laws are fundamentally false. Arguments about the truth of evolution or Newton's laws belong in the science forum.