Freethought & Rationalism Archive

southernhybrid · 03-16-2003, 06:32 AM

LuvLuv, I think the premise of the OP was based on the fact that we constantly see Xians giving praise to god for things that happen in their favor. The Smart family is just the most recent, well known example of this type of prayer. It seems a bit arrogant to think that if there were a god, he would bring one child home safely and allow another to die a horrible death. If you don't view prayer this way, I'd say you are unusual at least among American Xians.

My point is that these so called miracles would have happened with or without the prayers. Elizabeth Smart did not survive due to prayers made on her behalf. She survived because her captor, despite his heinous behavior chose not to kill her.

I have a very hard time understanding why theists seem to fail to realize that. It simply makes no sense to me.

openeyes · 03-16-2003, 06:47 AM

Quote:

. I understand now, for instance, that it is not worth stepping on people or belittling them to attain a position. The people I hurt are more important than the position I obtain, and... in the end, I don't need the position anymore to justify myself.

So if I had this same understanding without "God's" help, why does one have to pray to obtain it?

I quit praying 25 (or more) years ago. My life has had both good and bad, but I've been comfortable with the results understanding the parts I could possibly control. Knowledge has been useful in my decision-making and acceptance of outcomes.

MrDarwin · 03-16-2003, 06:57 AM

I really have to wonder, what point is there to praying at all if the outcome is God's will alone?

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
I think your mistake is in assuming that the primary role of prayer is getting God to give you what you want. One of the more fundamental roles of prayer is to get you to be dependant upon God and to get you to accept His will over yours.

Tell that to 10-year-old Lesley Ann Downey.

Quote:

Hindley lured the 10-year-old away from a fairground the day after Christmas 1964. The girl was sexually abused, tortured and forced to pose for pornographic photos.

Hindley recorded the abuse on an audio tape, which was played in court. Jurors listened to Lesley calling out for her mother and asking God to help her before she was killed.

Treacle Worshipper · 03-16-2003, 02:47 PM

I got an amazing example of the "power" of prayer only last w/e. A friend's mother (who's very devout) was telling me about a girl she knows who suffered from ME. As is usual with ME, the doctors could do very little for her (they don't know what causes it yet.) Her minister & a couple of other people went to pray for this girl. After they'd prayed for her, she slowly got better - over the next two to three years - until she is now almost normal again, and can pretty much lead a normal life, as long as she's careful. In other words, the ME followed the pattern that it's been seen to follow in a large number of cases. I just about managed to keep a straight face (we were celebrating her birthday, so laughing at her would have been particularly unkind), but :banghead:

Quote:

God helped me to understand that my life had meaning and a purpose IN AND OF ITSELF,

luvluv, I find this interesting, 'cos I had almost the reverse experience. I am able to acknowledge my intrinsic worth as a person far more easily now than when I was in the church. I am not constantly being told that I am a wretched sinner and must repent for my smallest thoughts. It's hard to have a positive self-image when people keep telling you you're bad and you can't do anything good, because any good you do is God working through you, and not you. Now my good is mine as well as my bad, and I'm much happier

TW

CALDONIA · 03-16-2003, 02:53 PM

"A man does not serve God when he prays, for it is himself he is himself he is trying to serve"

Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

MrDarwin · 03-17-2003, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
Now, thankfully before that time elapsed I became a Christian, and God became the center of my life instead of my career. God helped me to understand that my life had meaning and a purpose IN AND OF ITSELF, and that I did not have to be more succesful than other people to be a worthy human being.

Luvluv, you continue to raise ideas that I don't see coming from other Christians who visit here. The idea that life does indeed have meaning and purpose in and of itself, which I think is implicit in atheism, is often attacked by people who call themselves Christians.

sweep · 03-17-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

The "outcomes" that allegedly come about from the "power of prayer" seem to be statistically indistinguishable from outcomes of situations not influenced by prayer. I.E., as an atheist, I don't pray, and sometimes bad stuff happens to me but sometimes really good stuff happens to me. Kinda like when I was a theist and prayed my little heart out.

One of the sections within the field of radical (fundamental) behaviourism, deals with contingencies of reinforcement. Different contingencies can be set up> say a person presses a button and every (X) tries recieves a peanut from a dispenser above the button.

So long as a peanut comes out, the behaviour of pressing the button is reinforced. Looking at prayer in this light, I can see how infectious prayer could become. I probably won't get many prayers answered but every now and again, lo and behold, its a miracle!

I agree with what you're saying BTW

Clivedurdle · 03-17-2003, 01:31 PM

I became a Christian, and God became the center of my life instead of my career. God helped me to understand that my life had meaning and a purpose IN AND OF ITSELF, and that I did not have to be more succesful than other people to be a worthy human being. (I'm telling you too much here).

I must agree with other comments here. Interestingly, you seem to be expressing humanist psychotherapeutic ideas. As you have moved from being centred on a career to being centred on God maybe you are ready to move on to the freedom of working it out for yourself with others.

You are a worthy human being, with faults like the rest of us, you do not need God to affirm that for yourself.

HaysooChreesto! · 03-17-2003, 02:56 PM

Even as an atheist, I understand why people pray. It's cathartic. It can give one a feeling of control in a situation they have no control over, it can relieve guilt, it can clear the mind, etc.
It's just another form of meditation. While obviously it doesn't physically affect outside events, it can positively affect the mental health of the person praying.
Putting someone on the defensive for praying will inevitably result in their retreating further into their irrational beliefs. Personally I think the pray-er wins the argument by saying. "it just makes me feel better, now leave me alone".

Biff the unclean · 03-17-2003, 03:49 PM

luvluv: Besides, most Christians are trained to pray after the fashion of Jesus, and are taught to end with "nevertheless not my will, but thy will be done."

I can't help but notice in the story where this is the Jesus characters dialogue that this bit doesn't really fit. It seems like a quick fix done by a less than competent editor.
In the story so far he's known this was coming for, well, forever. He drops hints about it to his pals. He lets them know he'll be back, so he must know he'll be back. He knows what death is 'cause he invented it and he knows that he's immortal. But, what happens when it's time? In a fit of cowardliness he panics big time. He's in the garden on his knees pleading that "this cup pass" him by. He's even sweating blood, an actual condition that can happen to hysterics.
So it's one person in the Godhead praying to another person in Godhead not to let him die. And how did God answer God's prayer? He said NO!!!!! How can a Christian expect God to answer their prayers if he won't even answer those of the Christ.
But since God says no to even himself they had to stick a patch on the story. One second Jesus is sweating blood, on his knees, the next he's telling God, "Ah, that's okay. You do what you want, don't worry about me." Yeah, right. That really fits in with the rest of the dialogue. But now we know why Jesus is always pictured wearing a Depends�

03-17-2003, 03:49 PM	#20
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	pass the cup luvluv: Besides, most Christians are trained to pray after the fashion of Jesus, and are taught to end with "nevertheless not my will, but thy will be done." I can't help but notice in the story where this is the Jesus characters dialogue that this bit doesn't really fit. It seems like a quick fix done by a less than competent editor. In the story so far he's known this was coming for, well, forever. He drops hints about it to his pals. He lets them know he'll be back, so he must know he'll be back. He knows what death is 'cause he invented it and he knows that he's immortal. But, what happens when it's time? In a fit of cowardliness he panics big time. He's in the garden on his knees pleading that "this cup pass" him by. He's even sweating blood, an actual condition that can happen to hysterics. So it's one person in the Godhead praying to another person in Godhead not to let him die. And how did God answer God's prayer? He said NO!!!!! How can a Christian expect God to answer their prayers if he won't even answer those of the Christ. But since God says no to even himself they had to stick a patch on the story. One second Jesus is sweating blood, on his knees, the next he's telling God, "Ah, that's okay. You do what you want, don't worry about me." Yeah, right. That really fits in with the rest of the dialogue. But now we know why Jesus is always pictured wearing a Depends�

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03-16-2003, 06:32 AM	#11
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	LuvLuv, I think the premise of the OP was based on the fact that we constantly see Xians giving praise to god for things that happen in their favor. The Smart family is just the most recent, well known example of this type of prayer. It seems a bit arrogant to think that if there were a god, he would bring one child home safely and allow another to die a horrible death. If you don't view prayer this way, I'd say you are unusual at least among American Xians. My point is that these so called miracles would have happened with or without the prayers. Elizabeth Smart did not survive due to prayers made on her behalf. She survived because her captor, despite his heinous behavior chose not to kill her. I have a very hard time understanding why theists seem to fail to realize that. It simply makes no sense to me.

03-16-2003, 02:53 PM	#15
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	"A man does not serve God when he prays, for it is himself he is himself he is trying to serve" Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

03-17-2003, 01:31 PM	#18
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I became a Christian, and God became the center of my life instead of my career. God helped me to understand that my life had meaning and a purpose IN AND OF ITSELF, and that I did not have to be more succesful than other people to be a worthy human being. (I'm telling you too much here). I must agree with other comments here. Interestingly, you seem to be expressing humanist psychotherapeutic ideas. As you have moved from being centred on a career to being centred on God maybe you are ready to move on to the freedom of working it out for yourself with others. You are a worthy human being, with faults like the rest of us, you do not need God to affirm that for yourself.

03-17-2003, 02:56 PM	#19
HaysooChreesto! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 7,737	Even as an atheist, I understand why people pray. It's cathartic. It can give one a feeling of control in a situation they have no control over, it can relieve guilt, it can clear the mind, etc. It's just another form of meditation. While obviously it doesn't physically affect outside events, it can positively affect the mental health of the person praying. Putting someone on the defensive for praying will inevitably result in their retreating further into their irrational beliefs. Personally I think the pray-er wins the argument by saying. "it just makes me feel better, now leave me alone".

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