christ-on-a-stick

Several recent threads have touched on the issue of theists crediting the "power of prayer" for good things that have happened to them or their loved ones (the Elizabeth Smart case for example).

It reminded me of an interesting (and humorous) article written by Judith Hayes - "The Happy Heretic" - several years ago, on this topic; it's called The Power of Penguins and I think is worth reading (it's short).

It also reminded me of a conversation that I had once with my fairly fundy grandmother on the efficacy of prayer. Her claim is that there is no such thing as an unanswered prayer - that all prayers receive an answer, but the answer may be:

A) Yes (desired outcome happens)
B) No (desired outcome doesn't happen or undesired outcome happens)
C) Wait (nothing happens!)

In response to this, I asked her in all seriousness - "Isn't that what will always happen anyway?"

Meaning, in any situation, regardless of whether 1,000 prayers are said or none at all, one of three things will happen: either what you want to happen will, or what you want to happen won't, or nothing will happen.

The "outcomes" that allegedly come about from the "power of prayer" seem to be statistically indistinguishable from outcomes of situations not influenced by prayer. I.E., as an atheist, I don't pray, and sometimes bad stuff happens to me but sometimes really good stuff happens to me. Kinda like when I was a theist and prayed my little heart out.

Thoughts?

southernhybrid

I witnessed an interesting example of the stupidity of prayer just this past Monday. My 87 year old mother in law fell over the weekend and thought she had broken her hip. The initial xray came back and the ortho guy told her she needed a hip replacement. Since the quality of the xray was not very good, he repeated it before doing the surgery.

When the second xray came back, there was no fracture. Praise be! She said god had answered her prayers. I told her all the prayers in the world wouldn't have mattered as either the hip was broken or the hip wasn't broken. It was just a bad xray. She gave me a dumb stare.

Why on earth would god waste a miracle on a little old lady who didn't take proper safety precautions before transferring? Why didn't god help that poor teenager who got the wrong heart at Duke recently? Yeah, I know. We just don't understand god. That's not an excuse as far as I'm concerned. Do people really believe that stuff or are they just too afraid to think for themselves and the idea that a superhero might save them gives them hope?

Lots of good stuff has happened to me in the 25 or so years that I've been an atheist but I just figure it's because I don't bother god with petty requests. I find it much more comforting to know that I am the only one that can really make a difference in my life and if I do get sick or die early it's not because I'm being punished or tested by some quirky god. Shit happens. It's either the result of poor decisions or random events.

christ-on-a-stick

Greetings so-hy

Probably some of both, but I do believe that a lot of people really, honestly and earnestly believe that prayer works - to their detriment, IMO as it diminishes a) their personal empowerment (they are depending on something else) and c) respect for the accomplishments and actions of others (and themselves!) - i.e. giving credit (or at least ultimate credit) to an invisible friend instead of real live people. Nicely summed up Although some say they find belief in the power of prayer "reassuring", I actually find it a lot MORE of a relief to realize that when something bad happens to me it's not personal!!! It's very sad that so many people believe that when random bad stuff happens to them it's a sign of "sin in their life" or that they "haven't prayed enough".

luvluv

I think your mistake is in assuming that the primary role of prayer is getting God to give you what you want. One of the more fundamental roles of prayer is to get you to be dependant upon God and to get you to accept His will over yours.

Philosoft

You wouldn't know this by looking at the people doing the praying.

braces_for_impact

Originally posted by luvluv


And the good part about being dependent and helpless is what exactly?

I have yet to see a thiest pray for no reason. There is always a desired outcome, or they are reciting rote (the lords prayer for example) in which case it's mindless droning. Are they not praying for what they want?

Mageth

I think your mistake is in assuming that the primary role of prayer is getting God to give you what you want. One of the more fundamental roles of prayer is to get you to be dependant upon God and to get you to accept His will over yours.

I really don't see much of a difference. Your version has you praying so that you'll accept or at least understand what happens to you as god's will. You're back to the problem that what happens to you happens whether you pray to accept it as his will or not.

christ-on-a-stick

.....so we meet again.

Let's begin, shall we? I "assume" no such thing... in having spent the majority of my lifetime immersed in Xian culture (including spending time as an MK overseas thereby being exposed to Xians of many denominations from all over the world) AND my continued observations of Xians IRL (family, etc.) and in society at large - I have seen that in practice, most Xians pray for the primary purpose of asking God for what they want (or asking God to protect them from what they don't want).

Indeed, a multitude of Bible verses (particularly in the NT) seem to emphasize the power of prayer-as-petition:

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

luvluv, you may well argue that petition is not the *primary* purpose of prayer, in your interpretation, and that is fine.

HOWEVER, as the above verses show, believers ARE instructed to pray and "ask for things". So what my OP has to do with is the fact that the promise of Matthew 21:22 is clearly a false promise because as even believers admit sometimes they interpret its failure as either an answer of "no" OR "wait". A clear contradiction of Matthew 21:22.

Thoughts?

Further, As braces_for_impact pointed out.... being dependent is a good thing? Seems to me that being "dependent" on an entity that is a) invisible b) doesn't speak audibly c) works in such mysterious ways that even the multitudes of his followers can't agree on what he is trying to convey.... is about as rational as playing "eenie-meenie-miney-mo" to make your decisions in life.

Godless Dave

I see your point, and I agree that is one of the functions, if not the primary function, of prayer. It's also what sickens me about it.

luvluv

braces for impact:

Well, how privy do you believe you are to the prayers of billions of people? Do you think you have experienced a good cross-section of the multiplied billions of prayers that theists recite everyday?

Mageth:

In most cases you are probably right. But again, prayer is not a means to get you what you want. If it makes you submissive to God's will, it IS working. It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Besides, most Christians are trained to pray after the fashion of Jesus, and are taught to end with "nevertheless not my will, but thy will be done."

I know that, but in my opinion most Christians are wrong for doing so. Paul chastised Christians several times for making selfish, self-centered prayers, and plainly stated that such prayers would not be answered. I have no problem making the statement that, in my opinion, most Christians do not know what prayer is for. They use it as an attempt to make God submit to their will, and that is totally backwards.

Yes, believers are told to pray for things, but this is only one form of prayer, and it is the least spiritually developed one. Jesus was asked specifically how to pray, and his response was the Lord's prayer. In his example of prayer, Jesus opened up acknowledging God and praising Him (praise), asking FIRST for His will to be done (submission) then for our daily bread (petition), then for forgiveness (repentance) then asks to be lead in the right paths (direction) and finally ends again with praise. So prayer has many purposes, only one of which is petitionary. In my opinion, petitionary prayer is mainly a bulwark against idolatry. It teaches us to go to God for all our concerns instead of pursuing our concerns with no thought of him. It helps us to keep our focus on what is ultimately most important. This has helped me primarily in my professional life. I used to pursue my personal professional goals as an ends in themselves totally absent any dependance on God. As a result I became a very ambitious person in the worst sense of the word. I lived with a constant grudge against all my competitors, I was angry that my work was not recognized, I was happy when my peers failed and distraught when they succeeded. I believed I had human worthy when a project was going well and was worthless as a human being when they failed. I can even remember making a suicide pact when I was in college (of a sort, I don't know how serious I was. It's kind of like a different person made this). I can remember telling myself that if I hadn't succeeded proffesionally in a certain amount of time after graduation... well, I was going to end it. Looking back I don't think I ever REALLY meant it. (I was too much of a self-centered coward to actually kill myself.) But just the fact that I had the thought is now sickening enough.

Now, thankfully before that time elapsed I became a Christian, and God became the center of my life instead of my career. God helped me to understand that my life had meaning and a purpose IN AND OF ITSELF, and that I did not have to be more succesful than other people to be a worthy human being. (I'm telling you too much here). At any rate, since that time I have done as I was commanded to by Jesus, to "seek first the Kingdom of God". I still pursue my professional goals but through the prism of Christian commitment, and with a sense of perspective that comes from subordinating my professional goals to my spiritual concerns. This has come through seeking my goals through prayer as well as through my own action. By praying for my goals and not just working for them myself, I have invited God's perspective into the process. I understand now, for instance, that it is not worth stepping on people or belittling them to attain a position. The people I hurt are more important than the position I obtain, and... in the end, I don't need the position anymore to justify myself. I purse my goals for only one reason now... I enjoy it. I don't NEED it to feel complete anymore, and thus God has set me free.

So anyway that long rant was just to demonstrate how this stuff actually works out in real life.

As to being a clear contradiction of scripture, I am always of the opinon that scripture must be consider in light of other scripture. As I said before, Paul explicitly gave warning that selfish prayers prayed "after the flesh" would not be answered. I would dig up the exact quote but it's like 4 AM right now and I should be asleep. (Darn that Halo!) I'll try to do it tommorow but if you look up "after the flesh" you should turn up the verse. Also, I have to say (despite your previous thread) that I am not a Biblical literalist and I believe that scripture is one horn of a three-headed process. Scripture (in it's entire context) and personal revelation and corporate revelation must all be taken into consideration. Grabbing one quote out of context will lead one astray.