Soul Invictus

I've read in various threads about certain texts lacking any surviving original texts. Any care to name a few? Also, with these not being evident, what would be the hypothetical assumption for the translations we currently operate with? Also, what antiquarian documents do we have surviving original possession of?

Doctor X

Oh . . . I thought this was about whether or not Biblical texts are "historical."

No "autographs" exist--and no "single" text exists that is "the text" for any of the OT or NT texts. There are major witnesses--but other witnesses sometimes provide better readings.

Now, if you are really interested, I can hit the books and give a list of some of the major witnesses--most of my material is for NT--I have some basics on the OT--I will allow another poster to "jump in."

Unless, of course, you just had a simple question and did not need reams of an answer!

--J.D.

trillian

Original texts of the Bible? I don't believe I've ever heard of ANY of the bible books having a single surviving shred of original text- written by the supposed author.

But most ancient writings (like plato and homer) also do not have any original writings which survived. Just copies of copies of copies. Had they kept to carving things in cuniform, perhaps we'd have something, but scrolls are so fragile and the fervent Christians (and the wars they sparked) burned down many of the ancient libraries.

When they try to determine the original, they take all of the earliest copies and compare to try to decipher what the original may have been (a fairly detailed and laborious process).

In my opinion, the more time has passed-- along with a motive to change the writings to fit a desired goal, the more a writing is suspicious. This is why myths can be highly suspicious as to their original authenticity, but mathematical works can remain relatively solid to their original form.

So, in answer to your question: NONE survive.

trillian

Doctor X

Well . . . did not that guy with the Ossary in his bathroom also have a roll of toilet paper made out of Secret Mark?

--J.D.

Peter Kirby

The only ancient manuscripts in the West which may be originals are recent finds, such as those at Oxyrhynchus and Qumran, particularly non-literary papyri. Then there are tablets and inscriptions. Otherwise you get to read what monks found interesting.

best,
Peter Kirby

judge

The only books which it can be argued have come down to us "letter for letter" i.e. "with change or revision" are the 22 books of the eastern peshitta (Aramaic New testament) used in the liturgy of the Assyrian Church of the East (which would be the oldest liturgy around as well).
These books were translated into greek and then into the english we use. We don't have original copies because letters just don't survive for two thousand years or so. Why would they be kept when you can just make a copy?!?

The same claim could not be made about the OT as we know from Josephus and the DSS that variations existed by the time of Christ. (they may not have considered it as awfully important as we do today)

godfry n. glad

If you assert the below, how can you assert the above with any certainty?

I'd say the moment it was transliterated or translated, it became open to redaction, and probably was. Over two thousand years (probably more like eighteen hundred at most, if not considerably younger than that), these documents would have had to have been copied and recopied....each time opening it up to textual redaction. Then, when translated into Greek, it would not only be open to redaction, it would suffer from the inadequacies of trans-linguistic correspondence. This would occur once again when translated into English (or any other language).

I'd like to know upon what basis you make the assertion that these "eastern Peshitta" texts are uncorrupted.

....and...how do you know they are not frauds?

godfry n. glad

godfry n. glad

Also, if as is generally believed, the gospels were originally written in Greek, wouldn't these "eastern Peshitta" texts have had to have been translated from Greek into Aramaic? And then later translated from Aramaic into Greek?

godfry

Doctor X

Exactly!

--J.D.