Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 06-06-2003, 10:09 AM

A couple days ago there was a brief segment on MSNBC's "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - debate between Alan Dershowitz and Jerry Falwell on "Is America a Christian Nation"?

The transcript is here , you have to scroll a little more than halfway down to get to that segment...

I thought Dershowitz made some pretty hard-hitting, concise points and Falwell came off as a buffoon as usual

Toto · 06-06-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: No, not a Christian state, not a Jewish state, not a Muslim state. Jefferson believed deeply in God, a God of Deism, a God of nature, but he rejected Jerry Falwell�s God, my God. He hated the Bible. He thought it was written by unlettered, ignorant men. He thought the story of Jesus� resurrection came from Greek mythology and was like the story of Minerva coming out of the head of Zeus. He had utter contempt for the ten commandments, particularly the part that dealt with bestowing the sins of the fathers on the children.

He was not a man of the Bible. He was not a man of faith. He was a man of science and reason. And on his 50th birthday of the Declaration, just days before he died, he said the purpose of the Declaration was not only to free us from England but from monkish ignorance and clerical dominance of the kind that we had in Europe.

Preach it, brother!

Except then he had to go spoil it all:

Quote:

FALWELL: By the way, Alan, you say you don�t believe in the same God of Jefferson. Which God do you believe in?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, you know, I�m talking about the Jewish God of the.
FALWELL: Do you believe in the Jewish God of the Old Testament?
DERSHOWITZ: You know, Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, and sometimes on Saturdays.
FALWELL: I want a yes or no answer. Do you believe?
DERSHOWITZ: I have my questions. I sometimes believe and I sometimes don�t believe. I question everything.
FALWELL: You are not an atheist, right?
DERSHOWITZ: I would reject atheism.

The book he is promoting is here:

America Declares Independence

{edited to add: but in spite of his fear of the A word, this is probably a good book, with a valuable discussion of natural law and why we don't use it any more.}

MortalWombat · 06-06-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Except then he had to go spoil it all:

I think he did OK. Falwell was trying to change the subject in order to try to demonize Dershowitz instead of trying to argue the facts. Whether or not Dershowitz is an atheist, I don't think this would have been the forum to try to explain one's personal religious views, and I think he handled it well.

Grumpy · 06-06-2003, 01:36 PM

Which, to Falwell, is worse: an outright atheist, or a believer with doubts?

Is Falwell aware that a great many people, possibly a majority, cannot give a simple "yes or no" answer to the question, "Do you believe?"

christ-on-a-stick · 06-06-2003, 01:40 PM

I also thought that Dershowitz did a good job of (mostly) avoiding Falwell's "bait" on the personal-views thing... highlighting the fact that it's not *about* individual beliefs but the principle of church-state separation.

pariah · 06-06-2003, 01:45 PM

yes...its sad that hes a ashamed to call himself an atheist.

unless he really does believe and only questions it. if thats the case (which it quite possibly is, is it not?), he hardly fucked things up. he still showed fallwell who the boss was.

Jet Grind · 06-07-2003, 09:23 AM

I read the segment, and I think he did alright. He did leave out a lot of of facts that would've thrown Falwell's (as well as many of Chris') arguments out the window. None the less, he still held his own quite well.

I'm actually quite outraged that Falwell tried to change the subject to Dershowitz's personal beliefs. They have no relevance in the matter and it was an obvious attempt to villify him.

butswana · 06-09-2003, 08:26 AM

The only chance they have is to change the subject. Any time on of these right-wing douchebags faces off with some one in a CCS issue, they always attempt to derail the discussion. They know they are going to get spanked if they don't.

capsaicin67 · 06-09-2003, 08:17 PM

I saw this one, too.

It seems like Falwell is given gobs of airtime these days and is pretty well the PT Barnum of fundamentalism. The hosts are amazingly generous with him , too, but then, I'm biased.

I agree that the way it came off on tv was that Dershowitz said some good things about separation issues, but it did come off weak when Falwell sucker-punched him with the "atheist issue". Falwell scored on that one by making him stumble. But it's just another lesson as to what pro separation and freethought guests need to prepare for. Hopefully future guests and Dershowitz will learn from it.

themistocles · 06-10-2003, 02:00 PM

BTW, I love Hardball, certainly the best political punditry show.

Dershowitz shouldn't have answered the question of what his faith is. If you want to discuss American political history, a fundie will inevitably ask you what you believe, and this is precisely the point: it doesn't matter what you believe.

Being an atheist, fundie, or somewhere in between doesn't change objective history, and is merely a red herring for discussion. As a matter of fact, maybe less so than those discussing it, but you might argue that the religious convictions (or lack thereof, where appropriate) of the founding fathers is something of a nonissue, insofar as it affects or doesn't affect their opinion on how government should run.

06-06-2003, 10:09 AM	#1
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Dershowitz v. Falwell "Is America a Christian Nation"? A couple days ago there was a brief segment on MSNBC's "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - debate between Alan Dershowitz and Jerry Falwell on "Is America a Christian Nation"? The transcript is here , you have to scroll a little more than halfway down to get to that segment... I thought Dershowitz made some pretty hard-hitting, concise points and Falwell came off as a buffoon as usual

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06-06-2003, 01:36 PM	#4
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Which, to Falwell, is worse: an outright atheist, or a believer with doubts? Is Falwell aware that a great many people, possibly a majority, cannot give a simple "yes or no" answer to the question, "Do you believe?"

06-06-2003, 01:40 PM	#5
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	I also thought that Dershowitz did a good job of (mostly) avoiding Falwell's "bait" on the personal-views thing... highlighting the fact that it's not about individual beliefs but the principle of church-state separation.

06-06-2003, 01:45 PM	#6
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	yes...its sad that hes a ashamed to call himself an atheist. unless he really does believe and only questions it. if thats the case (which it quite possibly is, is it not?), he hardly fucked things up. he still showed fallwell who the boss was.

06-07-2003, 09:23 AM	#7
Jet Grind Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southern Maine, USA Posts: 220	I read the segment, and I think he did alright. He did leave out a lot of of facts that would've thrown Falwell's (as well as many of Chris') arguments out the window. None the less, he still held his own quite well. I'm actually quite outraged that Falwell tried to change the subject to Dershowitz's personal beliefs. They have no relevance in the matter and it was an obvious attempt to villify him.

06-09-2003, 08:26 AM	#8
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	The only chance they have is to change the subject. Any time on of these right-wing douchebags faces off with some one in a CCS issue, they always attempt to derail the discussion. They know they are going to get spanked if they don't.

06-09-2003, 08:17 PM	#9
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	I saw this one, too. It seems like Falwell is given gobs of airtime these days and is pretty well the PT Barnum of fundamentalism. The hosts are amazingly generous with him , too, but then, I'm biased. I agree that the way it came off on tv was that Dershowitz said some good things about separation issues, but it did come off weak when Falwell sucker-punched him with the "atheist issue". Falwell scored on that one by making him stumble. But it's just another lesson as to what pro separation and freethought guests need to prepare for. Hopefully future guests and Dershowitz will learn from it.

06-10-2003, 02:00 PM	#10
themistocles Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 670	BTW, I love Hardball, certainly the best political punditry show. Dershowitz shouldn't have answered the question of what his faith is. If you want to discuss American political history, a fundie will inevitably ask you what you believe, and this is precisely the point: it doesn't matter what you believe. Being an atheist, fundie, or somewhere in between doesn't change objective history, and is merely a red herring for discussion. As a matter of fact, maybe less so than those discussing it, but you might argue that the religious convictions (or lack thereof, where appropriate) of the founding fathers is something of a nonissue, insofar as it affects or doesn't affect their opinion on how government should run.

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