CX

Well then let me save you some time as one who spent many years debating biblical literalists/inerrantists. You cannot win. For every single 'obvious' biblical contradiction you can come up with someone long ago devised an apologetic response. Someone who's confessional stance precludes the very possibility of a biblical contradiction is not going to be convinced by any rational argument. Such people inevitably have the faith "trump card" to fall back on. It's a waste of time. If she's using the KJV you're all the worse off because that translation is tends to appeal to the most obtuse and rigid-minded believers.

godfry n. glad

Ihmhi-

If I were in your shoes, I'd be strolling on down to the local offices of the American Civil Liberties Union with that story.

It's fine for the teacher to start the day with the Pledge, but to enforce it is patently illegal and such has been upheld by the Supreme Court. She is engaging in a subtle form of religious intimidation, which, if she's a public school teacher, is a rank violation of the tenets of separation of church and state and a clear violation of the ruling of the Supreme Court on recitation of the Pledge of Alliegence.

The teacher's actions were illegal. Then she made it even worse by citing a patently erroneous, but oft repeated bit of Judeo-Christian mythology. I'm assuming that her comments about the "majority of our laws" being based on the Bible were made before the entire classroom. Is that correct?

If so...she stepped across a line she was not supposed to...sic the legal beagles on her.

godfry

SLD

I'd wait until you have damages first or at least threatened damages. When the Supremes state that you cannot be forced to say the pledge, they mean that you cannot be forced to choose between saying the pledge and getting otherwise suspended or kicked out of school or fined or some other loss of property and/or getting your ass kicked by your teacher. You must have a loss to have a lawsuit. Her telling you that you ought to say the pledge without a threat of some kind of action if you fail is difficult to make a case on.

SLD

godfry n. glad

Well, SLD, I'd say there _is_ a loss. The loss of the separation of state and church in the classroom and the loss of an equitible learning environment. What occurred, if we can rely upon the initial report, was an attempt to coerce through intimidation, with the objective being to enforce religious conformance. That, in my estimation, should be taken to the ACLU for consultation....then let _them_ advise the student so aggrieved as to the appropriate course of action.

godfry

iccarus

You really don't need to go to the ACLU for this, She is applying non-legal pressure due to her status as an authority figure in the state run classroom. If you are in the Ninth District the superior court has recently ruled that the pledge is unconstitutional. I would advise you to go straight to the Principal or the School Board. This is returning their appeal to authority with a returning appeal to authority. School Boards are very afraid of bad press that would result from a violation of civil rights trial.

As a teacher I am appalled by their lack of judgment and gross violation of the Constitution. Just as an FYI, in my classroom during the pledge all students are required to stand respectfully, but are not required to make any pledge under duress. The forcing of a promise is contrary to the intent of a pledge. I also refuse to say "under god" and have had students ask why and I will explain that it was added in 1957 to catch "godless communists" and violates the separation of church and state set forth by the founders of this country. If asked about my religion I will state that this is a personal question that the fact that I am employed by the state prohibits me from answering as a teacher, but if they wish to remain after class, then I can take off my "teacher hat." Surprisingly most students are respectful of that decision. It can also lead to interesting discussions on Freedom of Religion.

Addendum: Get your ass in gear and graduate.

Iccarus

luvluv

I didn't read the whole thread, but why would we not want to base our laws on a 1000+ page book that may have a few contradictions.

Say you came across the most brilliant political treatise on devising a civil society ever designed by man (and I'm not saying the Bible is that). Now say that this treatise opened with a story about creation that is not only clearly wrong, but contradictory.

Would that make the political treatise any less competent or valuable?

Lets say that your teacher (like myself) is not a Biblical literalist. What difference should it make to her that in one Genesis account the animals were created 1st and humans 2nd, and in the other it's reversed.

I say all this to say, it seems like you've started a ridiculously trivial argument. I agree that kids should not be forced to say the pledge of allegicance in class (God reference or no God reference, it's just fascist), but there's no reason to drag God into this discussion. You're picking a fight for no good reason.

godfry n. glad

non-legal = illegal

And, shortly thereafter placed the ruling in abeyance until the entire panel can review the decision (and I'm betting we never see it again), proving that legality is not a function of truth, accuracy and the American Way, but of misguided and misinformed popular opinion.

Often, the attitudes of the teachers reflect those of the principal (often the person who hired the teacher), the administrative offices and/or the school board. Taking this complaint to them could bring about informal retribution, rather than rectification. I'd say: Get legal advice first. The best legal advice available for little or no cost on these kinds of issues is the ACLU. Whether they file suit on your behalf or not is unimportant; what's important is that you are educated and reasonably prepared to present your concerns with clarity and know what remedies to expect.

Also, the typical response when such complaints are lodged with the principal and/or local school board is that the accused teacher will deny any breach of legality. It then becomes a nasty exchange of "he said, she said"; goes nowhere fast and ends up being swept under the carpet....with the only learning being that the complainant realizes that his/her "authority figures" are prevaricating hypocrites. However, if you go in with legal advice, it shows the teacher/principal/district administration/school board that you are serious and expect a rectification of the situation that led to the complaint. It gets attention....fast.

Very commendable. I'm not surprised by the student response at all. Wouldn't you have to delay the response until "after regular school hours" to be legal?

No need. I graduated years ago...with my Master's in Teaching.

godfry

NOGO

Hi Cowboy,

I must disagree with you on this.
Agreed, you wont convince her.
Agreed, in a sense it is a waster of time.

Fundamentalists are safe and secure in their beliefs. Confronting them with facts not only forces them to justify their beliefs but it also makes them see that others have very justifiable reasons not to believe.

People change. I have argued with a person for ages and then all of a sudden I realized how much he had changed. This person once told me that his real family was his Christian brothers and that his father and mother were not all that important. I reminded him of this statement 8 years later. He could not believe that he ever said that, but he remembered it because I argued with him all day.

People have all sorts of reasons to believe. All these reasons reinforce one another. One of them is that the BIble is perfect. I believe that it is important to pull down as many of these reasons as you can. Eventually, it all comes crahing down.

My friend still believes. But he believes in a very different way.
He is no fundie anymore.

NOGO

Challendged by my teacher.


If you read KJV then ask her to read Hebrews 9:25-26.

These verses say that Jesus could have come every year for our sins but instead chose to come once, at the end of the world.

The end of the world did not come.

YHWHtruth

Nogo:

(Hebrews 9:25) Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own.


I ask you, how is this explained for us in Hebrews 9:11, 12, 24-26 as to its significance?

Max