Ihmhi

I have an interesting story to tell. It ends with a challenge, and I don't think I can win it unassisted. That's why I'm writing this post. Please read on.:boohoo:


One Nation Under God

The following events occured on June 6, 2003.

I woke up late, as I usually do. The school year's almost over anyway. I'm failing most of my classes because I was lazy and irresponsible this year. Next year, I'll be a junior in high school again. The only benefit from this is that I have learned many new things. I've also gained confidence in my beliefs.

After going through the metal detector (as is the mandatory practice these days), I walked up the stairs to the second floor, turned a corner, and walked into my homeroom.

My teacher, whom I'll refer to as "Ms. S.", was in the military. She is a theist and a patriot. I respect her beliefs, no matter how asinine I believe them to be, because she defends them so vehemently.

We got to the pledge of allegiance. It's a Friday, and the five students in homeroom (including me) are all tired. The first time, it is almost entirely inaudible. Ms. S. stops the class halfway through and tells us to begin again. The second time, we're a little louder, but the class in general is still very low. Probably because I wasn't reciting it.

I have a twisted sense of humor. In the Animorphs book series, one of the characters named Marco talks about gods he invented (then again, who hasn't invented a God? ) called the Irony Gods. They magically do what you don't want to happen at the worst possible time.

Today, they got me.

"Ihmhi," (BTW, this is not my real name; I'm using my screen name in its place) said Ms. S., "why aren't you reciting the pledge?"

I was facing the flag and she was behind me, so I turned around. I had been standing silently but respectively.

"I choose not to," I calmly replied. The other four kids were looking at me. The heat of embarassment began to build up inside me.

"Why?" she asked.

"Because it is my right to do so," I said.

"Okay," she said. She instructed the remainder of the class to recite it a third time, and I stood there silently once again. I couldn't help but notice that the other kids would occasionally glance at me from the corner of their eyes.

After we had finished, I sat down. Ms. S. walked up to me.

"Why don't you recite the Pledge of Allegiance?" she asked. "Is it related to a religion?"

"No," I replied. "I do it as a form of protest."

"What are you protesting?" she inquired.

"I am protesting the intergration of religion in our government," I said.

"What are you, an atheist?" she asked, almost in disbelief.

"Actually, yes," I stated. I was insulted, but I hid it well. "The government isn't supposed to support any religion, yet the phrase 'Under God' is in the Pledge of Allegiance, 'In God We Trust' is on our money, and we swear on the Bible in our court of law. It is unfair to people who believe in other religions and especially unfair to people who don't believe in religion at all."

"But the majority of our law is based on the Bible," she stated.

At this point, I had been awake for about an hour. I was tired, and she had broken down what few mental defenses I had ready at the moment. I couldn't muster the energy to refute her prepostorous statement.

"I don't think our laws should be based on a book full of immorality and contradictions," I said wearily. Homeroom would be over in two or three minutes.

"Contradictions? What contradictions?" she asked.

Thankfully, I had been going to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible quite often in the past few days. I had read most of the Genesis section.

"Well, in Genesis, there are two different accounts of the Creation," I said. "In one, it is stated that God created the beasts first, and then man and woman simultaneously. Later, it is stated that first God created Man, than took his ribb to create Woman. After that, He created the beasts."

"Nevertheless," she said, "He created these things on the same day. No matter what time He did it, he created Man and Woman on the same day."

Her argument was shaky, but I let it slide.

"True," I replied, "but one says he created humans and then animals, and the other says he created animals and then humans."

I thought I had her. I didn't.

"Well, I've been over the whole Bible, and I haven't seen one contradicition."


The Challenge

I want to prove her wrong. She uses the King James version of the bible. I need something that I can show her so I can prove the bible is immoral and it contains contradictions. Please tell me some of the largest contradictions and moral atrocities in the King James Bible, along with the reference points so I can look them up in her bible and show them to her.

Please help an atheist defend his beliefs.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Ihmhi

P.S. Please excuse any misspelling or grammatical errors. Me soooooooo tired, wanna go sleepy now.

Principia

Be careful how you do it. In publicly engaging her, you are doing exactly what you ought not be doing -- wasting other student's time discussing religious matters publicly when they could be educated in more practical matters.

Biblical contradictions are in the eye of the beholder. You can see one, but given the ambiguity of the language and the close-mindedness of your teacher (judging at least from what I've read), I don't think you'll make a difference.

Toto

I would suggest checking out what Don Morgan has written for the Infidels library:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...an/index.shtml

Biblical Atrocities and Biblical Inconsistencies should do it for you.

But then I would also suggest buckling down, getting your act together, and doing well in your classes so you can have a life after high school.

Ihmhi

In my school, Homeroom is 12 minutes long. It is not an actual class; we just sit around while the teacher takes attendance and we watch the student-produced television show. We also listen to announcements.

I don't like to back down from conflicts I can win. And whether I convince her or I don't, it doesn't matter; we don't learn anything in homeroom, so nobody's losing out on their education.

Nevertheless, keep the advice coming. I know this won't be easy.

keyser_soze

Print out a list of the 100 most obvious contradictions, put in the 100 worst atrocities, and then put in a page of logical fallacies. Give her it to study over a weekend. Tell her to at least be honest to herself, and bid her a fond farewell.

YHWHtruth

Additionally, the way a narrative is constructed can lead to an apparent contradiction. At Genesis 1:24-26, the Bible indicates that the animals were created before man. But at Genesis 2:7, 19,_20, it seems to say that man was created before the animals. Why the discrepancy? Because the two accounts of the creation discuss it from two different viewpoints. The first describes the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) The second concentrates on the creation of the human race and its fall into sin.—Genesis 2:5–4:26.

The first account is constructed chronologically, divided into six consecutive “days.” The second is written in order of topical importance. After a short prologue, it logically goes straight to the creation of Adam, since he and his family are the subject of what follows. (Genesis 2:7) Other information is then introduced as needed. We learn that after his creation Adam was to live in a garden in Eden. So the planting of the garden of Eden is now mentioned. (Genesis 2:8, 9,_15) Jehovah tells Adam to name “every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens.” Now, then, is the time to mention that “Jehovah God was forming from the ground” all these creatures, although their creation began long before Adam appeared on the scene.—Genesis 2:19; 1:20, 24,_26.

Max

keyser_soze

Dont' let him B.S. you, that covers about 10 of 200 contradictions at best. If you get a good apologetist they'll bend all of reality to make more of them fit, but it still doesn't bear common sense or scrutiny. Go for the big ones, go for the big atrocities, go for the kill.

YHWHtruth

Again, it was enough until you started to justify yourself with even more inaccurate statements about what I wrote. The error you made was significant for it made me look like I didn't know what I was talking about (and I am sure that is what you were hoping to demonstrate when you hastily latched onto a misreading of my post), when it is you who continually make mistakes that have a direct impact on others who listen to you. Just let it go, KEY.

Max

Viti

God recommends joyfully dashing babies against rocks

God rewards the Israelites with the virgins of the defeated people

God and the Israelites are defeated because God apparently cannot stand up to Iron chariots

God sends a bear to devour children for making fun of a bald man

Judas was paid 30 silver pieces for betraying Jesus....what did he do with it? Did Judas hang himself or fall headlong in his field and break his guts open? There are two accounts of what happened to Judas

These are a few of my favorites

mike_decock

Well, Ihmi... You have just seen a good example of how an apologist can twist and turn an obvious contradiction into a theological discourse on why it [sarcasm]really isn't a contradiction at all[/sarcasm]. By the time you get through the apology, you're so bored of the drivel that you don't even want to bother with it anymore.

I don't know whether or not your teacher is going to come up with these kind of mental gymnastics in response to a list of contradictions but you can see how pointless such an exercise would be.

My advice would be to let it slide and not to make it an endeavour to educate your teacher. School isn't an appropriate place to debate religion, especially not between a student and a teacher. I think it was inappropriate for her to ask why you declined to recite the pledge. As far as I'm concerned, she was in the wrong at that point.

-Mike...