Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sir drinks-a-lot · 08-14-2003, 03:07 PM

How do evolutionists explain Irreducible Complexity? The popular example given by Behe is the half-eye, or the half-wing. Neither of these are useful until they are fully developed, so how were they naturally selected/propogated?

08-14-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sir drinks-a-lot
How do evolutionists explain Irreducible Complexity? The popular example given by Behe is the half-eye, or the half-wing. Neither of these are useful until they are fully developed, so how were they naturally selected/propogated?

The evolution of flight and the evolution of the eye, from Atheists.org.

RufusAtticus · 08-14-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sir drinks-a-lot
How do evolutionists explain Irreducible Complexity?

Random Mutation + Natural Selection.

Quote:

The popular example given by Behe is the half-eye, or the half-wing. Neither of these are useful until they are fully developed, so how were they naturally selected/propogated?

They are progated because in fact they are useful. One half of an eye is 2% better than 49% of an eye. In fact we see many examples in nature that can be considered "half-eyes" and "half-wings," and yet the organisms who have them are able to use them.

God Fearing Atheist · 08-14-2003, 03:51 PM

Theres alotta-lotta stuff on this.

One of Nic's threads on the blood-clotting cascade

Ken Miller on the flagellum.

Matt Inlay on various "irreducibly complex" immune system pathways

Melendez-Hevia et al on the evolution of the Krebs cycle (click on the Journal of Molecular Evolution logo to read the full paper)

A neat example of co-option resulting in the biodegration of pentachlorophenol, a synthetic pesticide first produced in the 1930's (meaning it had to have evolved very recently)

You can find lots of other stuff on the web.

-GFA

Doubting Didymus · 08-14-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

One half of an eye is 2% better than 49% of an eye.

What?

RufusAtticus · 08-14-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
What?

(50%-49%)/50% = 2%

Doubting Didymus · 08-14-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
(50%-49%)/50% = 2%

How obvious. How many times must I have seen people get this wrong?

(It's a silly statement in either case. As if you can measure the fitness of an organ as a 1:1 linear function of some sort of etherial "completeness" percentage anyway)

Mageth · 08-14-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
How obvious. How many times must I have seen people get this wrong?

Don't feel bad. When I saw that, I thought the problem was with this damn half eye of mine.

Doubting Didymus · 08-14-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Don't feel bad. When I saw that, I thought the problem was with this damn half eye of mine.

Has anyone informed Richard Dawkins yet?

lpetrich · 08-14-2003, 08:10 PM

Actually, having two eyes, or two "super eyes", is rather widespread, and not simply a vertebrate feature.

Cephalopods also have two eyes -- the nautilus's pinhole-camera eyes and the coleoids' (squid+octopus) lens-camera eyes.

Arthropods typically have more than two eyes, but when they have a large number of eyes, the large majority of them are grouped into compound eyes. And almost always two such "super eyes".

My patience runs out here, however; perhaps I could discuss some time the physical limits of eye performance.

08-14-2003, 03:07 PM	#1
sir drinks-a-lot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 665	Behe's Irreducible Complexity How do evolutionists explain Irreducible Complexity? The popular example given by Behe is the half-eye, or the half-wing. Neither of these are useful until they are fully developed, so how were they naturally selected/propogated?

08-14-2003, 08:10 PM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Two Eyes: More than just Vertebrates Actually, having two eyes, or two "super eyes", is rather widespread, and not simply a vertebrate feature. Cephalopods also have two eyes -- the nautilus's pinhole-camera eyes and the coleoids' (squid+octopus) lens-camera eyes. Arthropods typically have more than two eyes, but when they have a large number of eyes, the large majority of them are grouped into compound eyes. And almost always two such "super eyes". My patience runs out here, however; perhaps I could discuss some time the physical limits of eye performance.

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08-14-2003, 03:51 PM	#4
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Theres alotta-lotta stuff on this. One of Nic's threads on the blood-clotting cascade Ken Miller on the flagellum. Matt Inlay on various "irreducibly complex" immune system pathways Melendez-Hevia et al on the evolution of the Krebs cycle (click on the Journal of Molecular Evolution logo to read the full paper) A neat example of co-option resulting in the biodegration of pentachlorophenol, a synthetic pesticide first produced in the 1930's (meaning it had to have evolved very recently) You can find lots of other stuff on the web. -GFA

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