Seeker196

"Beliefs shared by one's social group are not considered delusional, by definition"

If a 'delusion' is a belief with no basis in reality than beliefs shared by a social group are not non-delusion "by definition"...

And yes, the textbook and manual both say this, but I think they are wrong.

There is no valid reason to consider certain preposterous (in the strict sense of the term, not the ad hominem sense) beliefs non-delusional simply because of the number of people who believe in them.

Why has such a theist-serving defintion survived for so long? The reasons should be obvious...

Analogy:
10 people are in a sinking boat. They are the only people in world. 9 of the ten believe that the boat should not be patched because Herbert the Giant Hedgehog will show up at the last minute and patch it for them. This is a very ancient, traditional belief, deeply rooted in the culture (its a very slow sinking boat, Ok?).

So you're saying that the Hedgehog belief is a relgion, as opposed to a delusion?

OK, then we have the reverse situation. 1 of the ten believes in the Hedgehog. The others don't. Now, by your own definition, Hedgehog-ism becomes magically a delusion instead of a religion...

Psychology today is therefore science by headcount.

IMHO, even if 2 million people believed in the Happy Hedgehog, it would still be a delusion.

Christian belief, in the fundamentalist form, IS a delusion.

Why is the God-concept special? Thousands believe in UFOs, past life regression, etc. They are also delusional (delusion=clinging to a belief unsupported by evidence).

EDIT: Jesus speaking to me 'in my heart' is just a way of describing a feeling eh...maybe for liberal, mainstream Xians, but not the Koreshs, Jones, Mansons, etc of the world.

That's another point, what's the difference between Manson and the Catholic Church? Answer: 2 billion believers, and better organizational skills.

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Seeker196 ]</p>

-DM-

As Nathaniel Branden puts it in his book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787945269/InternetInfidelsA" target="_blank">The Psychology of Self-Esteem</a>: "Mental health requires of man that he place no value above perception, i.e., no value above consciousness, i.e., no value above reality. ... There is no greater self-delusion than to imagine that one can render unto reason that which is reason's and unto faith that which is faith's. ... Anyone who engages in the practice of psychotherapy confronts every day the devastation wrought by the teachings of religion. ... If preventive therapy is every psychologist's and psychiatrist's professed dream, then an expose of the harmful consequences of childhood exposure to religion is a pretty good place to begin."

I agree with him.

This is not to say, of course, that all theists are psychotic. However, those theists who believe in a literal resurrection and other physical events which contravene the laws of nature likely would be classified as mentally unbalanced if those beliefs were not wrapped in religious garb and if they were openly talked about as if true, studied in Sunday schools, preached about on street corners, etc., etc.

Mad Kally is correct that there is often a religious element in psychosis. It is also true (if I remember correctly from my abnormal psych classes) that religious belief and schizophrenia occupy the same portion of the brain.

And certainly the biblical Jesus would likely be diagnosed by the standards of today as psychotic were it not for the fact that he is excused from such judgement (by all but a relatively small portion of us) by reason of the fact that his behavior and teachings are wrapped in religious garb.

--Don--

Seeker196

"psychotic"

Please don't bandy this term about, it has a precise definition.

A Christian MAY be psychotic...but Christian belief of itself is only delusional, it does not meet the description of the psychotic disorders.

Don: that's very interesting, Delusional Disorder is in the same section as the schizoid disorders. (and NOT the psychotic disorders)

sullster

I am an extreme opponent of religion and rant and rave against it, but calling all who practice it psychotic is not something I can agree with.
I prefer to call theists, irrational. We are all going in and out of states of irrationalism all the time. The human brain seems wired with it and we cannot escape it.
Who among us does not think irrational thoughts, even the most rational? In some ways, religion provides an area to corral irrationality for some people.

I am just uncomfortable with the universal label of psychosis for theists. That the mental health hospitals are full of psychotic theists,I do not doubt. That the "normal" world is a bit off its rocker, I do not doubt either, but the term "psychotic", no it just doesn't work for me. It is tatamount to labeling all of humanity, psychotic. Maybe we are, but that is another story.

Mad Kally

Does something seem wrong with this picture? Millions of otherwise normal citizen's eyes glaze over with that psychotic look while listening to Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, and many others, preach about "The Demons of Depression." She is only one of hundreds of televangelists who mesmerize millions of American theists. (then proceed to fill people with so much guilt they send in every cent they can get their hands on)
Either send in your money or spend eternity buring in hell! (with wailing and gnashing of teeth)

My own mother appears to be a nice public school teacher. She knows it's against the law to preach in the classroom. But holy shit, you should see her off the schoolgound! She and her friends have tried to exorcise demons out of me since I was a very young child because I asked too many questions.

She and her insane church members get on busses on Saturdays and go around the city giving candy to the poor children while brainwashing them. My mother hands out sweet little tracts to innocent children. On the front cover is a big hand with a nail in the palm and blood running down the forearm. Inside it shows a bunch of colorful flames. (showing what will happen if you don't accept Jebus)

They are the people you might deal with every day. How do you know for sure? Have any of you ever watched <a href="http://www.tbn.org" target="_blank"> TBN </a> on TV? They sit in big gold throne chairs and heal people in the name of Jesus. (never any documentation) Take a look and see real psychosis! It's sick that these people operate stations all over the world. Paul and Jan Crouch (the amazing pink haired woman of TBN) recently bought a mutil-million dollar home in Newport Beach, California. Their goddamned headquarters are located in southern California! The bible belt has nothing crazier than us!

This is not psychotic behavior? Ha!

Metacrock

Meta =&gt;You couldn't be more off the track factually. Read my debarte with Gurdur and you will see in my fisrt two posts I document extensively that the psychiatric community does not regard religion as the problem, but now has come to regard unbelif as the problem. Why?

1) because the stats show that religious believers have few incidence of mental illness and over all better mental health.

2) Religious belief is the beast means of coping with degression (all of this is back up with tons of studies which I site in that debate)

3) The old assumptions of Frued were not based upon data but merely bigotry.

4) Religion is consistantly sited as the number one factor in over all happiness.

These are empirical facts which have been produced from study after study. So your whole assumption is totally wrong. In fact in quoting FRom the head of the shrink department at the University of Soa Polo "the unbelieve is now seen seen as the sick soul."

GunnerJ

Quite a Freudian, Meatcock. Not only is religion the beast, but it allows people to digress easily. In case you haven't noticed, though, Koy was making an argument based on the definition of psychosis, not vague references to dubious authorities. You see, he uses logic to debate, rather than quote mining and authority whoring, with a plastic label of scholarship slapped on it.

Metacrock

That is a totally unsubstantiated statment and can be disproven with a ton of social sciences data. In fact whole disciplines in psychology have sprung into being based upon Abraham Maslow's research which pointed the way to understanding religiouis experince in a positive light. There is litterally a ton of data on this top and it's not hard to find studies backing up the positive nature of religion all over the place. Here is just a small sample of what I"ve found:'

<a href="http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/coh_spr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/coh_spr.htm</a>

Cities on a Hill News Letter Spring 1999


Social Scientists Agree: Religious Belief Reduces Crime
Summary of the First Panel DiscussionPanelists for this important discussion included social scientists Dr. John DiIulio, professor of politics and urban affairs at Princeton University; David Larson, M.D., President of the National Institute for Healthcare Research; Dr. Byron Johnson, Director of the Center for Crime and Justice Policy at Vanderbilt University; and Gary Walker, President of Public/Private Ventures.  The panel focused on new research, confirming the positive effects that religiosity has on turning around the lives of youth at risk.
From left to right: Midge Decter, John DiIulio, David Larson, Byron Johnson and Gary Walker.

Dr. Larson laid the foundation for the discussion by summarizing the findings of 400 studies on juvenile delinquency, conducted during the past two decades.  He believes that although more research is needed, we can say without a doubt that religion makes a positive contribution.  His conclusion: “The better we study religion, the more we find it makes a difference.”Previewing his own impressive research, Dr. Johnson agreed.  He has concluded that church attendance reduces delinquency among boys even when controlling for a number of other factors including age, family structure, family size, and welfare status.  His findings held equally valid for young men of all races and ethnicities. Gary Walker has spent 25 years designing, developing and evaluating many of the nation’s largest public and philanthropic initiatives for at-risk youth.  His experience tells him that faith-based programs are vitally important for two reasons.  First, government programs seldom have any lasting positive effect.  While the government might be able to design programs that occupy time, these programs, in the long-term, rarely succeed in bringing about the behaviorial changes needed to turn kids away from crime.Second, faith-based programs are rooted in building strong adult-youth relationships; and less concerned with training, schooling, and providing services, which don’t have the same direct impact on individual behavior.  Successful mentoring, Walker added, requires a real commitment from the adults involved – and a willingess to be blunt.  The message of effective mentors is simple.  “You need to change your life, I’m here to help you do it, or you need to be put away, away from the community.”  Government, and even secular philanthropic programs, can’t impart this kind of straight talk.Walker is working on a pilot project with Dr. DiIulio and Rev. Eugene Rivers to implement a faith-based mentoring system in 10 cities around the country.  But the project faces some daunting challenges, as Mr. Walker sees it.  Can faith-based mentoring, which usually works on a small-scale, informal basis, be successfully bureaucratized, even by private organizations?  And can faith-based mentoring overcome resistance from government and philanthropic funders in order to grow and thrive?


People smart in different ways

<a href="http://www.mindpub.com/art162.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mindpub.com/art162.htm</a>

Rail
<a href="http://www.inviteafriend.org/research.htm" target="_blank">http://www.inviteafriend.org/research.htm</a>

Attending services is the most significant factor in predicting charitable giving. Robert Wunthnow, Acts of Compassion, Princeton University Press, 1991.
 
[] Attending services is the most significant factor in predicting volunteer activity. Ibid.
 
[] Sixth through twelfth graders who attend religious services once a month or more are half as likely to engage in at-risk behaviors such as substance abuse, sexual excess, truancy, vandalism, drunk driving and other trouble with police. Search Institute, "The Faith Factor," Source, Vol. 3, Feb. 1992, p.1.
 
[] Churchgoers are more likely to aid their neighbors in need than are non-attendees. George Barna, What Americans Believe, Regal Books, 1991, p. 226.
 
[] Three out of four Americans say that religious practice has strengthened family relationships. George Gallup, Jr. "Religion in America: Will the Vitality of Churches Be the Surprise of the Next Century," The Public Perspective, The Roper Center, Oct./Nov. 1995.
 
[] Church attendance lessens the probabilities of homicide and incarceration. Nadia M. Parson and James K. Mikawa: "Incarceration of African-American Men Raised in Black Christian Churches." The Journal of Psychology, Vol. 125, 1990, pp.163-173.
 
[] Religious practice lowers the rate of suicide. Joubert, Charles E., "Religious Nonaffiliation in Relation to Suicide, Murder, Rape and Illegitimacy," Psychological Reports 75:1 part 1 (1994): 10 Jon W. Hoelter: "Religiosity, Fear of Death and Suicide Acceptibility." Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, Vol. 9, 1979, pp.163-172.
 


The presence of active churches, synagogues, or mosques reduces violent crime in neighborhoods. John J. Dilulio, Jr., "Building Spiritual Capital: How Religious Congregations Cut Crime and Enhance Community Well-Being," RIAL Update, Spring 1996.
 
[] People with religious faith are less likely to be school drop-outs, single parents, divorced, drug or alcohol abusers. Ronald J. Sider and Heidi Roland, "Correcting the Welfare Tragedy," The Center for Public Justice, 1994.
 
[] Church involvement is the single most important factor in enabling inner-city black males to escape the destructive cycle of the ghetto. Richard B. Freeman and Harry J. Holzer, eds., The Black Youth Employment Crisis, University of Chicago Press, 1986, p.354.
 
[] Attending services at a church or other house of worship once a month or more makes a person more than twice as likely to stay married than a person who attends once a year or less. David B. Larson and Susan S. Larson, "Is Divorce Hazardous to Your Health?" Physician, June 1990.
Improving Personal Well-Being

[] Most happy people are also religious people.

96% of people who say they are generally happy agree that "My religious faith is the most important influence in my life." &lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;George Gallup, Jr. "Religion in America: Will the Vitality of Churches Be the Surprise of the Next Century?", The Public Perspective, The Roper Center, Oct./Nov. 1995.


[] Most people who find their work exciting and fulfilling are religious people.


&lt;65% of people who say their occupation is exciting and fulfilling say that they find "comfort and support from my religious beliefs." Ibid.

[] Most people who are excited about the future are religious people.

&gt;80% of those who say they are "excited about the future" agree that they find "comfort and support from my religious beliefs." Ibid.

[] Most people who feel close to their families are religious people.

94% of people who "feel very close" to their families agree that "my religious faith is the most important influence in my life." Ibid.

[] Eight in ten Americans say religious beliefs help them respect themselves. Ibid.
[] More than eight in ten say that their religious beliefs lead them to respect people of other religions. Ibid.

 Improving Health

[] Regular church attendance lessens the possibility of cardiovascular diseases, cirrhosis of the liver, emphysema and arteriosclerosis. George W. Comstock amd Kay B. Patridge:  "Church attendance and health."  Journal of Chronic Disease, Vol. 25, 1972, pp. 665-672.

 [] Regular church attendance significantly reduces the probablility of high blood pressure.  David B. Larson, H. G. Koenig, B. H. Kaplan, R. S. Greenberg, E. Logue and H. A. Tyroler:  " The Impact of religion on men's blood pressure."  Journal of Religion and Health, Vol. 28, 1989, pp.265-278.  W.T. Maramot:  "Diet, Hypertension and Stroke." in  M. R. Turner (ed.) Nutrition and Health, Alan R. Liss, New York, 1982, p. 243.

 [] People who attend services at least once a week are much less likely to have high blood levels of interlukin-6, an immune system protein associated with many age-related diseases.  Harold Koenig and Harvey Cohen, The International Journal of Psychiatry and Medicine, October 1997.

 [] Regular practice of religion lessens depression and enhances self esteem.  Peter L. Bensen and Barnard P. Spilka:  "God-Image as a function of self-esteem and locus of control" in H. N. Maloney (ed.) Current Perspectives in the Psychology of Religion, Eedermans, Grand Rapids, 1977, pp. 209-224.  Carl Jung: "Psychotherapies on the Clergy" in Collected Works Vol. 2, 1969, pp.327-347.

 [] About half of religious people "have a lot of stress" in their lives, but only half of these "often get depressed." George Gallup, Jr. "Religion in America: Will the Vitality of Churches Be the Surprise of the Next Century?" The Public Perspective, The Roper Center, Oct./Nov. 1995.

 [] Church attendance is a primary factor in preventing substance abuse and repairing damage caused by substance abuse.  Edward M. Adalf and Reginald G. Smart:  "Drug Use and Religious Affiliation, Feelings and Behavior."   British Journal of Addiction, Vol. 80, 1985, pp.163-171.  Jerald G. Bachman, Lloyd D. Johnson, and Patrick M. O'Malley:  "Explaining  the Recent Decline in Cocaine Use Among Young Adults:  Further Evidence That Perceived Risks and Disapproval Lead to Reduced Drug Use."  Journal of Health and Social Behavior, Vol. 31,  1990, pp. 173-184.  Deborah Hasin, Jean Endicott,   and Collins Lewis:  "Alcohol and Drug Abuse in Patients With Affective Syndromes."  Comprehensive Psychiatry, Vol. 26, 1985, pp. 283-295.   The findings of this NIMH-supported study were repilcated in the Bachmen et. al. study above.

 
This data is reprinted from RIAL Update which is edited by Robert B. Lennick and published twice a year by Religion In American Life.  Reprinting of any material in this copyright publication requires written permission from the editor.

<a href="http://www.bangor.ac.uk/rs/ms/monitoring.html" target="_blank">http://www.bangor.ac.uk/rs/ms/monitoring.html</a>

W.K. Kay and L.J. Francis
Drift from the Churches: attitudes towards Christianity during childhood and adolescence, Cardiff, University of Wales Press, 1996, pp x + 266Key words: attitudes - Christianity - children - adolescents - empiricalMedium: authored bookSummary:

How and why do some young people become religious?  Are religious people happier than others?  Do church schools help pupils to develop a positive attitude toward Christianity?  What part does personal religious experience play in shaping religious attitudes? 

Twenty-five years of empirical psychological and sociological research on young people in relation to Christianity is presented here in a set of interrelated studies which show how attitude toward Christianity in young people is linked with schooling, cognitive development, masculinity and femininity, church attendance, religious experience, science, well-being, mental health and the Eysenckian model of personality.

Mad Kally

Why you say? Perhaps because 80%+ of the US buys into the insanity?
(Including psychiatrists and psychologists)

I read your debate with Gurdur and all I can say about that is "you are not all there", if you know what I mean! Maybe one card short of a full deck? Your posts are an excellent source of amusement. Everyone knows that laughter really does heal and boost the immune system! (without your horrid fairy tale invisible sky creatures)

A psychiatrist once told me I should pray more and read the bible. haha (the sick fuck)

Metacrock

Meta =&gt;So they gave you a job in a funny farm, that doesn't mean you know anything about social science. IN fact you dont', because if you did you would quote the data instead of just your opinion based upon a random sample of one guy. Yours is hardly a representaive sample or an unbaised sample. In fact the data disputes your conclusion.


MEta-&gt;Just the fallacy of false cause. Some menal cases have religious backgrounds, thereore, religion causes mental illness. That's just as illogial as you can get. That kind of logic can prove that drinking milk leads to heroin addiction.

Meta =&gt;The sad part is that they don't require people to have licences to spout opinions about social sciences. Take a course in social research methods!